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Donald McKeown

Today's Building Hours

8am - 10pm

All service hours

Graduation Year

1958

College

OVC

Interview Date

Interviewer

B. Reynolds

Call Number

RE1 UOG A1340166

Audio

Donald McKeown interview

Transcript

B. Reynolds (00:00:01):
Uh, today, our- our- our guest and our conversation is gonna be with Dr. Donald McKeown, and, uh, Dr. McKeown, uh, I ask your permission first, we can get a little less formal than that, and I can call you Don from out here on in and-

Donald McKeown (00:00:15):
If I can call you, Bob, you know, yeah, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:00:16):
Indeed, (laughs), you certainly may, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:00:17):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:00:18):
Anyway, uh, it's been, uh, in reading the notes that you gave us, uh, I find this an intriguing career, and I jokingly when I came in this morning said to you, "We may be here for two or three days to ta-

Donald McKeown (00:00:27):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:00:28):
... taping this because there's a lot happened to you from when you were born in Vaseys, and what, uh, 77 years ago." No, not- not 74 years ago?

Donald McKeown (00:00:35):
Se- 74.

B. Reynolds (00:00:36):
74 years ago?

Donald McKeown (00:00:37):
Yeah, yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:00:37):
Uh, to where you got to, (laughs), uh-

Donald McKeown (00:00:40):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:00:40):
... you moved around a bit, haven't you?

Donald McKeown (00:00:42):
Yeah, that's right. I've moved around so much that some people say I'm unstable, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:00:46):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:00:46):
But I have-

B. Reynolds (00:00:47):
I doubt that.

Donald McKeown (00:00:47):
... I- I've enjoyed every minute of it, and it's been a, um, a very rewarding career-

B. Reynolds (00:00:51):
So-

Donald McKeown (00:00:52):
... being a veterinarian.

B. Reynolds (00:00:53):
... Yeah, so I and should, I should have qualified that, you- you are a- a veterinarian, did I say that properly this time?

Donald McKeown (00:00:58):
Indeed, yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:00:59):
It's a tough word for me, and I always stumble on it. But let's go back to Vasey, Vasey, uh, isn't one of those well-known Ontario communities, is it?

Donald McKeown (00:01:05):
No. It isn't, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:01:06):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:01:07):
No, it's a crossroads, er, with a school and a church. And, uh, I spent, uh, public school there till about a grade six, and, um, it was a one-room school of course, in th- in those days, and-

B. Reynolds (00:01:20):
They all were in those days, weren't they, yeah?

Donald McKeown (00:01:21):
... yeah they were. And I was-

B. Reynolds (00:01:21):
You know, er, thinking back Don, do you feel now when you look at the education system right now where we bust every, all the kids in, was there anything really wrong other... forget the expense factor, what, there was nothing wrong with the educational system at that point with those one year's, you know, one-room schools?

Donald McKeown (00:01:34):
No, it wasn't. We had about 20 students in our, with, uh, 12 grades, and the students, uh, in the year ahead of us taught. In so doing I think they learned a lot, and I learned a lot teaching other students.

B. Reynolds (00:01:46):
Right, and you were sort of hearing things that were ahead of you too, aren't you then, when you're in one room like that?

Donald McKeown (00:01:49):
Well indeed, because you're, because there's other people and then you had a, you had a cross section of social exposure to all ages and, uh, in that school, you know, because-

B. Reynolds (00:01:58):
Er.

Donald McKeown (00:01:58):
... they were, you know, from seven, I guess, to 17.

B. Reynolds (00:02:03):
And a great connection, if you will, with the teacher at that point too, because she became almost a- a mother or an aunt to you, didn't she, I'd imagine?

Donald McKeown (00:02:10):
Indeed, indeed.

B. Reynolds (00:02:10):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:02:11):
Yeah, that's right.

B. Reynolds (00:02:12):
So it's sad in a way they have disappeared. I don't know how we got off on that track-

Donald McKeown (00:02:15):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:02:15):
... but you think of them, and I-

Donald McKeown (00:02:15):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:02:15):
... I think there was so many of them around, when you drive through the country now and see how they've been converted to housing, and you think, "Gee, you know-

Donald McKeown (00:02:20):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:02:20):
... think of the stories that was in that [crosstalk]?

Donald McKeown (00:02:21):
Yeah, and- and the kids today, like I rode a horse to school in the wintertime, and, er, just got off and it went home, but it wouldn't come and get me.

B. Reynolds (00:02:28):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:02:28):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:02:30):
Was this your first love for animals telling me about that horse you rode to school or not?

Donald McKeown (00:02:34):
I- I don't know when it happened. Just, I think just growing up on the farm and being exposed to animals, uh, you become directed in that way, I think, uh, subconsciously.

B. Reynolds (00:02:43):
Okay. Now, the farm, dairy farm or not?

Donald McKeown (00:02:45):
No. It was a mixed farm.

B. Reynolds (00:02:46):
A mixed farm.

Donald McKeown (00:02:46):
A rather poor farm.

B. Reynolds (00:02:46):
Yeah, yep.

Donald McKeown (00:02:47):
Yeah, we grew a lot of rocks.

B. Reynolds (00:02:48):
(laughs), well, that, and then we should re- locate Vasey then. Locate, it's near Midland, I guess, I mean, we're not-

Donald McKeown (00:02:54):
Yes, it's about, uh, 10 kilometers south of Midland.

B. Reynolds (00:02:58):
... So it's on the, it's on the, uh, it's on the less rocky side if you will, if you go north you're getting into more rock there, aren't you?

Donald McKeown (00:03:03):
Yeah, these were, these were, er, uh, small boulders there, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:03:05):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:03:06):
No, it was a, it wasn't a very, very productive farm at all.

B. Reynolds (00:03:10):
Now, your parents had been on that farm, and your- your pa- grandparents too, then or not?

Donald McKeown (00:03:13):
My grandparents were and, uh, it was next-door to the-

B. Reynolds (00:03:16):
S-

Donald McKeown (00:03:16):
... home farm of my great-grandfather.

B. Reynolds (00:03:18):
... So that goes back how many generations in farming in that area?

Donald McKeown (00:03:20):
Well, it went three.

B. Reynolds (00:03:21):
Three?

Donald McKeown (00:03:22):
My father, my grandfather and great-grandfather, and I- I can't count me on that one.

B. Reynolds (00:03:27):
No, because you, I guess, you were- you moved away before you were actually farming, other than doing the normal chores-

Donald McKeown (00:03:30):
That's right, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:03:31):
... that kids do at that time.

Donald McKeown (00:03:31):
Thank goodness, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:03:32):
(laughs), yeah, you really mean that, so you-

Donald McKeown (00:03:35):
I do.

B. Reynolds (00:03:35):
... say, "Thank goodness," yeah?

Donald McKeown (00:03:36):
I do. It was a great experience in the early years, but to grow there and- and earn a living would have been, uh, really difficult.

B. Reynolds (00:03:43):
I- I had, I had a vision of you riding that horse to school in the wintertime, because the steam left him, and that come out of his nose like it, like that on that farm ride or not, (laughs)-

Donald McKeown (00:03:50):
(laughs), that's right, that's right.

B. Reynolds (00:03:50):
... you'd have to sort of- you needed-

Donald McKeown (00:03:52):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:03:52):
... windshield wipers to clear the way when you're out-

Donald McKeown (00:03:54):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:03:55):
... on a cold day.

Donald McKeown (00:03:55):
Yeah, I could never understand why he wouldn't come and get me.

B. Reynolds (00:03:57):
(laughs), and he wouldn't-

Donald McKeown (00:03:58):
No.

B. Reynolds (00:03:59):
... he would, he would go home on his own-

Donald McKeown (00:04:00):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:04:00):
... but not come and get you?

Donald McKeown (00:04:01):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:04:01):
Well, there's a story they tell around here, you know, about, uh, ol- old Dr. Groves and his, uh, when he'd get on these magical surgical, uh, visitations of his across the country and the horse and buggy, and he'd fall asleep half the time coming home, because he'd been working so hard all day, you know, he'd been at it-

Donald McKeown (00:04:14):
Sure.

B. Reynolds (00:04:15):
... all day long, and the horse knew exactly where to go, and just took him home.

Donald McKeown (00:04:17):
Yeah. It was a, it was great. Uh, and, yeah I had formed a bond, you, you know, with that horse because-

B. Reynolds (00:04:23):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:04:23):
... it helped me get to school.

B. Reynolds (00:04:25):
It was one of your buds, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:04:26):
(laughs), yeah, that's right, the only person to talk to.

B. Reynolds (00:04:27):
So then before you get to high school, you moved then, did you, or not, or?

Donald McKeown (00:04:31):
Yes, my parents moved to Toronto, because of illness, er, and my mother's side of the family who lived in Toronto, and, uh, they couldn't look after themselves, so we- we had to sell the farm, which was a wonderful thing that happened, f- uh, and, um, it opened up doors of opportunity for us, that we wouldn't have had on the farm. Uh, a wider cultural e-

B. Reynolds (00:04:53):
That must, er, I was gonna say, it must've been an amazing, er, er, change though from Vasey to-

Donald McKeown (00:04:56):
Yeah, (laughs), it is.

B. Reynolds (00:04:56):
... from the farm in Vasey to- to, (laughs), the heart of Toronto, because, uh-

Donald McKeown (00:04:59):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:04:59):
... you told me before where you lived-

Donald McKeown (00:05:01):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:05:01):
... you were, you were out near Davenport and Shaw, right, or that area?

Donald McKeown (00:05:04):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:05:04):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:05:05):
But it was, uh, it was a cultural shock for me, but even more so for my- my father who lived on the farm all the time, [crosstalk]-

B. Reynolds (00:05:13):
He was born on the farm and lived there all the time.

Donald McKeown (00:05:15):
... he had to come, that's right, and he came to Toronto and had to g- go to sch- high school again, to reeducate himself to get a job and- and, uh, he became an electrician and- and, uh, with the trial- [crosstalk 00:05:26]-

B. Reynolds (00:05:25):
So he was going to high school then when he was the parent, and you were-

Donald McKeown (00:05:29):
... Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:05:30):
... and you're what, you're seven or eight-

Donald McKeown (00:05:30):
Yeah, at night.

B. Reynolds (00:05:30):
... years old?

Donald McKeown (00:05:31):
At night, yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:05:32):
Where'd you go to high school then, or did he, went to Central Tech-

Donald McKeown (00:05:34):
Oh, where did he go?

B. Reynolds (00:05:35):
... Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:05:35):
He went to night school at, uh, Bloor Collegiate.

B. Reynolds (00:05:37):
Bloor Collegiate?

Donald McKeown (00:05:38):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:05:39):
Yeah. Yeah. So, it was an in- interesting change and, no, you didn't bring the horse, I take it?

Donald McKeown (00:05:43):
No, (laughs), that's right, no.

B. Reynolds (00:05:44):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:05:45):
No.

B. Reynolds (00:05:46):
Yeah, what- what- what were the, when you got there, er, er, er, you know, what were your first impressions, can you remember or not... can you remember them telling you that they were gonna move, when you heard that, you must have had a-

Donald McKeown (00:05:55):
Yeah, [crosstalk].

B. Reynolds (00:05:55):
... interesting-

Donald McKeown (00:05:55):
Yeah, well-

B. Reynolds (00:05:56):
... thought process?

Donald McKeown (00:05:56):
... I- I can't really remember, you know, I can remember the impact of moving to Toronto, and having all, instead of, uh, 17, 18 kids in school, having, er, 800, uh, and, uh, I- I think I was young enough to be able to adjust without too much trauma.

B. Reynolds (00:06:17):
Yeah, young- young people do adjust usually pretty-

Donald McKeown (00:06:19):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:06:19):
... quickly, don't they, right?

Donald McKeown (00:06:19):
I remember my father having difficultly though.

B. Reynolds (00:06:21):
Right.

Donald McKeown (00:06:22):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:06:23):
So what was, uh, I'm sure that there was a difference for them. Uh, then after Oakland, you went on to attend McMaster?

Donald McKeown (00:06:30):
Yes, I went there for a year to upgrade my, uh, subjects for veterinary school.

B. Reynolds (00:06:34):
Now, you at that point had made up your mind, had you, that you were going to go to-

Donald McKeown (00:06:36):
I had.

B. Reynolds (00:06:37):
... to a veterinary school, yeah?

Donald McKeown (00:06:38):
I had, because I, um, I, uh, knew several veterinarians, er, in, er, on the farm, and, uh, one of them was one of the first woman that ever graduated from veterinary school, and had her practice in Hamilton, her name was Rumney and that had, you know, how in- individuals in your life have a huge impact at the right time.

B. Reynolds (00:06:58):
Yeah, yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:06:59):
She was one.

B. Reynolds (00:06:59):
Yeah. So she was, wh- why was she just a kind person?

Donald McKeown (00:07:02):
Well, she's a dynamic, nice person, interested in her work, and- and, uh, er, and, uh, of course I, she was intimately known to her family, and that was a draw too, and-

B. Reynolds (00:07:14):
Right, well had she been from Vasey originally then?

Donald McKeown (00:07:16):
... Yes-

B. Reynolds (00:07:16):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:07:17):
... she was just down the road from us.

B. Reynolds (00:07:18):
Oh was she, so you were the second vet then to come out of Vasey-

Donald McKeown (00:07:21):
That's right, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:07:22):
... weren't you, (laughs)?

Donald McKeown (00:07:22):
That's right, yeah, that's right, (laughs). But there have been several since, yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:07:26):
Okay, now did she, had she, did she st- she had stayed in touch with you after you- you moved to Toronto, I guess, had she not?

Donald McKeown (00:07:30):
Well, my parents kept in touch-

B. Reynolds (00:07:32):
Right.

Donald McKeown (00:07:32):
... and, uh, she was another generation quite beyond me, but, uh, and then we had occasion to go and visit her, and I went to visit her in her practice.

B. Reynolds (00:07:40):
Now have you always like animals?

Donald McKeown (00:07:42):
Oh yes.

B. Reynolds (00:07:42):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:07:43):
Yeah, I- I respect them, and, uh-

B. Reynolds (00:07:45):
Had a dog when you were growing up on the farm?

Donald McKeown (00:07:46):
... Oh, yes, very much so.

B. Reynolds (00:07:47):
Yeah. A collie?

Donald McKeown (00:07:48):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:07:49):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:07:49):
A mixed collie.

B. Reynolds (00:07:49):
Yeah, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:07:50):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:07:50):
They are, they all those farm-

Donald McKeown (00:07:52):
Buddy, (laughs), buddy, yeah, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:07:52):
... dogs back in those days?

Donald McKeown (00:07:53):
That's right. Sure.

B. Reynolds (00:07:54):
They were great. They- they used to, I know in my own, my own, uh, earlier life then too, I can remember with my dad who was a CN agent in various places around Ontario, and we'd have to deliver a telegram to the farmer, to a farm or something of that nature, and he used to always teach me, "Don't get out of the du- car, until, (laughs), s- the farmer comes out and he's with the dog-

Donald McKeown (00:08:11):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:08:11):
... or she's with the dog, because otherwise, (laughs), you never know what's gonna happen?"

Donald McKeown (00:08:13):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:08:14):
So, yeah, that's, you grew up with just sort of a funny feeling about collies, but we ended up having one, so they were-

Donald McKeown (00:08:18):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:08:18):
... and they're great dogs.

Donald McKeown (00:08:19):
Yeah, they're-

B. Reynolds (00:08:19):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:08:19):
... they were. They were-

B. Reynolds (00:08:21):
Yeah. Anyway, then the change to McMaster must've been interesting too. Then what... you had to take, wh- why not enter a veterinary college before you went to McMaster then, was that a-

Donald McKeown (00:08:29):
... Why, I'm sorry?

B. Reynolds (00:08:30):
... yeah, why not right into the, into the veterinarian school-

Donald McKeown (00:08:32):
Oh, I didn't have enough subjects, yeah, I was, uh, I was short of one language, so I had to go and take English and German and- and, uh, French, all at once.

B. Reynolds (00:08:42):
... I'm sure the German has served you well in future years?

Donald McKeown (00:08:44):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:08:44):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:08:46):
Not at all. Oh.

B. Reynolds (00:08:47):
Oh, a linger of credit, when you think back again though under the, to the days of, in that system of education, you had these essentials-

Donald McKeown (00:08:54):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:08:54):
... too, I know I took like French in the second year of high school, and I was playing some basketball in those days, and the teacher used to send me for his meal every French lesson.

Donald McKeown (00:09:01):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:09:01):
And, you know, I passed at the end of the year, but I didn't, you know, I was like [inaudible] again, and-

Donald McKeown (00:09:06):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:09:06):
... then we moved away from there, we came to a new school, and I couldn't, they said, "What have you been doing with your French?"

Donald McKeown (00:09:10):
I wasn't very good in German, and, (laughs), the teacher, since you brought that up, but, um, at the end of the year, there was about 20 men in my class at McMaster, all there doing the same thing, (laughs), upgrading our-

B. Reynolds (00:09:23):
Upgrading.

Donald McKeown (00:09:24):
... because we- we were really leaving, and our forte was in science, right? And in at the last day of the lecture he said, "How many of you are going into science," everybody put up their hand-

B. Reynolds (00:09:35):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:09:36):
... he said, "Everybody passes."

B. Reynolds (00:09:37):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:09:38):
So just come and write these down-

B. Reynolds (00:09:39):
As long, as long as they get rid of you in a language-

Donald McKeown (00:09:41):
... (laughs), yeah, that's [crosstalk].

B. Reynolds (00:09:42):
... [crosstalk], you're not coming back in this, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:09:45):
Yeah, (laughs). Oh, so that's-

B. Reynolds (00:09:46):
So-

Donald McKeown (00:09:46):
... how I got in veterinary school.

B. Reynolds (00:09:47):
... so that was your one year in McMaster.

Donald McKeown (00:09:49):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:09:49):
You know, was that your first time away from home then, basically?

Donald McKeown (00:09:52):
Yes, it was.

B. Reynolds (00:09:52):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:09:52):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:09:52):
And a good experience too?

Donald McKeown (00:09:53):
Excellent, yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:09:54):
What'd it teach you?

Donald McKeown (00:09:54):
What did they teach me?

B. Reynolds (00:09:56):
No, what did it teach you, being away from home?

Donald McKeown (00:09:58):
Well I, um, I had the good fortune to, uh, have a- an apartment with, um, a good friend, and, uh, we had a, we had a great social life, and, uh, and it taught me, that year was really, set me up to learn how to study, learn how to learn, and, uh, uh, that was really valuable. The social aspect and- and- and being, having a good friend with me, yeah, during that year. He went on to become a United Church Minister, and I fell by the wayside.

B. Reynolds (00:10:27):
No, I don't think so-

Donald McKeown (00:10:27):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:10:29):
... I think you did, I mean, you've done fairly well, and you're still going to the United Church, aren't you?

Donald McKeown (00:10:31):
Yeah, I do.

B. Reynolds (00:10:31):
You're still go to Melville's

Donald McKeown (00:10:31):
Yeah, that's right.

B. Reynolds (00:10:32):
... so you're, yeah, you [coughs].

Donald McKeown (00:10:33):
Excuse me.

B. Reynolds (00:10:34):
Uh, and then after McMaster, was the move to Guelph, that had, that was UG at that point, or not, or was it the old Ontario Agricultural College?

Donald McKeown (00:10:43):
It was, it was the Agricultural College, and the, um, the veterinary school was, uh, tied by degree to the University of Toronto then.

B. Reynolds (00:10:49):
Okay. So the University of Guelph had- hadn't started in those days as a-

Donald McKeown (00:10:53):
As a degree giving-

B. Reynolds (00:10:53):
... as a name anyway.

Donald McKeown (00:10:54):
... Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:10:55):
Yeah, no.

Donald McKeown (00:10:55):
My- my, uh, degree comes from the University of Toronto.

B. Reynolds (00:10:59):
Yeah. People may not appreciate this, but Don, and I'm sure you can talk to this one. I- I, this was not an unheard of facility for teaching veterinarian medicine in North America, or for that matter in the world, was that, is that correct in saying that?

Donald McKeown (00:11:16):
That's correct.

B. Reynolds (00:11:16):
They were pretty renowned-

Donald McKeown (00:11:17):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:11:17):
... the O, the O, the OAG as it was called then, wasn't it, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:11:20):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:11:21):
Or, is that right, year?

Donald McKeown (00:11:21):
OAC.

B. Reynolds (00:11:22):
OAC.

Donald McKeown (00:11:23):
Well-

B. Reynolds (00:11:23):
It was well-known, wasn't it?

Donald McKeown (00:11:25):
... well-known, yeah, worldwide, uh, it- it certainly is the oldest veterinary school in North America. It is, uh, during the, and, uh, I think, mo- uh, the University of Montreal had a veterinary school before Guelph, but it didn't last, it, uh, started up again later on.

B. Reynolds (00:11:43):
When it wa- and in those days Don was it not known as being that kind of a school too? It was, it was, it was an agricultural school, as opposed to being a university?

Donald McKeown (00:11:50):
Yes, it was studying at, yeah, that's right-

B. Reynolds (00:11:53):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:11:53):
... it was an agricultural school, so-

B. Reynolds (00:11:53):
Then, which they are, in which they were doing, I guess, remarkable work if one thinks back in the field-

Donald McKeown (00:11:58):
... mm-hmm (affirmative).

B. Reynolds (00:11:58):
... of agriculture to intrude the whole system, be it in the veterinarian side, or whoever, is that true or not?

Donald McKeown (00:12:03):
Well, that's true, and, uh, now of course they're really excelling worldwide, but, in around the turn of the century, and up to the '20s, uh, most of the veterinarians in Northeast United States were graduates of the Ontario Veterinary College.

B. Reynolds (00:12:17):
Really?

Donald McKeown (00:12:18):
That's, sure, and Pennsylvania-

B. Reynolds (00:12:19):
Because they were-

Donald McKeown (00:12:20):
... fewer-

B. Reynolds (00:12:20):
... because we were way ahead of what the American schools were trying-

Donald McKeown (00:12:22):
... yeah, that's right, and- and of course in those days the course was pretty minimal, like you'd go for, er, uh, a year, two years, then, but, uh, still they were recognized as being excellent.

B. Reynolds (00:12:35):
... Right, now when you... let's talk about the course for a minute, what was it like? You go from McMaster, now you, all those years then you have really in a sense not been near animals, other than having a pet, I guess, is that right-

Donald McKeown (00:12:46):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:12:46):
... or not?

Donald McKeown (00:12:47):
Yeah, that's right, yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:12:47):
So all of a sudden now you're... how did it start off, you get, you, first of all you don't go to a- a farm somewhere and service a cow or do whatever at that point, do you- you-

Donald McKeown (00:12:54):
No, you're, it's- it's pretty much book learning for the first two years-

B. Reynolds (00:12:58):
... Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:12:58):
... and then you get into, uh, doing some, uh, some technical stuff, and hands-on stuff, but-

B. Reynolds (00:13:04):
You're smiling, somewhat interesting things must've happened when you got into that hands-up s- uh, hands-on stuff, did it, or no?

Donald McKeown (00:13:09):
... Oh, it did, yeah. It really did. Um, but more interesting things happened that, uh, after I graduated, you know, I think-

B. Reynolds (00:13:16):
Right.

Donald McKeown (00:13:16):
... um, the veterinary school was a serious place, and we worked very hard, and it was a tough course, and, uh, they, we got a phenomenal education. When we graduated, uh, we felt very confident, er, that we could, uh, deal with most situations and, um, and, uh, er, in that era, it was excellent.

B. Reynolds (00:13:39):
When, where- where did it, and in that era then, uh, Don, uh, where did the profession stand as far as being, uh, I wanna say this in the proper way, but then I shouldn't worry, should I, uh, in the sense of it being more business, or less businesslike than it is today? I mean, I- my- my memory of- of veterinarians in the areas that I grew up, small towns, where he was a doctor who looked after animals in that town-

Donald McKeown (00:14:03):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:14:03):
... the clinic game had not got into it at that point, had it or not very much?

Donald McKeown (00:14:06):
Not very much, no.

B. Reynolds (00:14:07):
No?

Donald McKeown (00:14:07):
And, uh, it was, uh, it was not as business-driven, uh, as it is today. Um. I guess, I've been out of it for, you know, 10 years or so, but, um, you really have to be a businessman and a- a people person, and a veterinarian, in that order, because, uh, veterinary medicine is really a- a people-related business-

B. Reynolds (00:14:34):
Well, it's a marketing game now.

Donald McKeown (00:14:35):
... it's a marketing game, and then-

B. Reynolds (00:14:36):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:14:37):
... your technical skills were in- in order of importance it seems to me, for success as a business has to be in that order.

B. Reynolds (00:14:44):
Right. Right, so, when you're, when you're at school then, where, did they had, they had a farm at the co- the university then, did they, or at the, at the college?

Donald McKeown (00:14:52):
Well, they- they did-

B. Reynolds (00:14:52):
They had animals, they had the whole thing there, or did they, or?

Donald McKeown (00:14:54):
... Well, no they, as far as the food-producing animals, and the horses, they had an extension service where they took, er, us as veterinarians, and a teacher, uh, in a practice situation.

B. Reynolds (00:15:06):
And what would one of those early practices be all about? What would they- they-

Donald McKeown (00:15:09):
The prac-

B. Reynolds (00:15:09):
... take you out to do, you know meaning-

Donald McKeown (00:15:10):
... right.

B. Reynolds (00:15:10):
... meaning a practice-

Donald McKeown (00:15:11):
Oh.

B. Reynolds (00:15:11):
... a practice visit- visitation.

Donald McKeown (00:15:14):
Well, it was a, er, as compared to today, we didn't have antibiotics... we were just getting antibiotic. We had very poor, uh, uh, sedatives, for example, and unable to, manipulate animals. We had very poor anesthetic.

B. Reynolds (00:15:27):
That's an, that's an interesting thought right there, you know, that, I guess, most people don't even realize, that you can't really go at an animal anymore than you can go at a human being with- with not-

Donald McKeown (00:15:35):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:15:35):
... having sedatives to give them, hey?

Donald McKeown (00:15:36):
That's right. That's right. You need, you need drugs for, you have to control the animal, and because we have so many good drugs to control animals, um, er, eh, women in veterinary medicine of course, so-

B. Reynolds (00:15:49):
Yeah, and, can I just... sorry to interrupt there-

Donald McKeown (00:15:50):
... Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:15:51):
... but when you say, "Control," and I don't want anybody to get the wrong impression, that's not to- to overwhelm them or do something-

Donald McKeown (00:15:55):
No.

B. Reynolds (00:15:55):
... of that nature, it's to keep them under, it's to allow you to- to ch- to do what had to be done them-

Donald McKeown (00:16:00):
Exactly, in order to accomplish-

B. Reynolds (00:16:00):
... okay, sorry I didn't mean to interrupt, but I just thought that.

Donald McKeown (00:16:01):
... uh, er, uh, an examination, or-

B. Reynolds (00:16:04):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:16:05):
... er, collect a blood sample, or whatever had to be done some-

B. Reynolds (00:16:09):
I mean, because they don't understand, do they, what's going on?

Donald McKeown (00:16:10):
... No, they don't, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:16:10):
You can't tell them, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:16:12):
Yeah. But you see, uh, yeah, for many years, maybe oh 20 years, uh, 80 percent of the veterinarians had been women, and they can do very well in large animal practice, because they have these tools now available to them so that, uh, yeah, it's quite different, and when you're trying to... eh, you're asking me what happened when, eh, in practice in those days, well it was p- pretty crude, (laughs), I think-

B. Reynolds (00:16:40):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:16:40):
... and, uh, in the sense that-

B. Reynolds (00:16:43):
Would they start you with a horse or a smaller animal, (laughs)?

Donald McKeown (00:16:45):
... well they started us, (laughs), with all of them, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:16:47):
With all of them?

Donald McKeown (00:16:48):
Yeah. Yeah. They got, they, um, once we get into third, fourth and fifth years, of course fifth years was entirely hands-on, doing things, uh, people bringing animals in, uh, because the- the Ontario Veterinary College of course run a small animal, large animal practice.

B. Reynolds (00:17:04):
And that's been going for a long time then, hasn't it, that- that animal practice?

Donald McKeown (00:17:06):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (00:17:06):
Because I'm amazed now that it's-

Donald McKeown (00:17:07):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:17:07):
... still, uh, you know, that they're, that they- that's a big, big business, if you will, down there?

Donald McKeown (00:17:12):
It is.

B. Reynolds (00:17:12):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:17:12):
And, uh, now it's more going to specialization, because they have, they have cardiologists and neurologists, and dermatologists, and so veterinarians from around the province, uh, refer in difficult cases there, and-

B. Reynolds (00:17:26):
Yeah, oh, it's intriguing and we're getting offtrack a bit, we'll go back to, we'll get back to the, to the, to the, uh, to, uh, Guelph in a minute, but it this, a- a thought occurred to me that I, because, er, this was only about six months ago, I guess, one day I was astounded. I was getting my hair cut, and the- the lady that was doing the haircut said... and she has a dog, and- and, uh, she said, "Oh, my dog's giving blood transfusions now," or blood, she- he's donating to the blood bank. And I thought, "Wait a minute," but that's true, isn't it? There is a blood bank-

Donald McKeown (00:17:50):
... It is, yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:17:51):
... because he- she- she goes down to Guelph regularly now, and dog gives-

Donald McKeown (00:17:53):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:17:53):
... gives blood.

Donald McKeown (00:17:54):
Yeah, they have, uh, blood types like humans.

B. Reynolds (00:17:57):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:17:57):
Maybe not quite as strong, but they have blood types, and, uh, and they have to, uh, of course identity those blood types before they give them onto other dogs.

B. Reynolds (00:18:06):
Yeah, right. So the practicing, go back to that. Let's get back to this practice. I mean, you first start doing the, (laughs)-

Donald McKeown (00:18:10):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:18:11):
... what- what was the most interesting thing that happened to you at that point, or the thing that-

Donald McKeown (00:18:13):
Well-

B. Reynolds (00:18:14):
... that really threw you off, or whatever, (laughs)?

Donald McKeown (00:18:16):
... well, the m- one of the most interesting, I was, uh, working for, uh, Robert Buck, in, uh, Waterloo at, uh, and, um, he ha- and he was looking after small animals. It was during the Christmas break, and, uh, he was, he had to go away for a few days, and I was looking after the practice.

B. Reynolds (00:18:34):
So you had- had the thing all by yourself at that point?

Donald McKeown (00:18:35):
Yeah, at that time, and I hadn't quite graduated, (laughs), yet. You couldn't do that now, (laughs), now.

B. Reynolds (00:18:38):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:18:39):
But, uh, I was tucked into my bed, and, uh, it was Christmas Eve, and it was nice and warm, but it was about 10 or 15 below outside, snowing, and, um, I got a call from a lady saying that she had a- a sick heifer, and it was down in the barn, and would I come and look at it? Well, reluctantly I got out of bed, (laughs), and went to, drove to the farm, which was just south of Waterloo. A Mennonite lady and I went to the house, knocked on the door, and the house is still there actually, I drove by it the other day, and, uh, she came out with a lantern, and we trudged-

B. Reynolds (00:19:11):
No- no electrical power, not that no?

Donald McKeown (00:19:12):
... no electrical power. We trudged through the snow over to the barn, which was a long way away, went into the barn, and there was only a few animals in the barn, and as you know if there's only a few animals, it gets pretty cold in there, and this, uh, a- er, heifer was down in a box stall, thrashing around, and all dirty in manure-

B. Reynolds (00:19:29):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:19:30):
... so I climbed over and got into the box stall with the needle that I wanted to put in the vein, and I was riding this, er, wild animal, and she was holding the light, and I could barely see... finally got the needle in the vein, got the bottle of whatever I was giving, (laughs), I forget now, and got it hooked up and ready to go, and the... it was frozen.

B. Reynolds (00:19:47):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:19:47):
The- the material was frozen. So I took the needle out, and got out of the box stall-

B. Reynolds (00:19:52):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:19:53):
... and we trudged back to the house, and she fired up the wood stove. We melted the stuff, went back and did it again, and this took about two and a half hours, and I said on my way home driving, I said, "That's the end of my large animal experience," (laughs), I'm going to do small animals.

B. Reynolds (00:20:08):
Small animals.

Donald McKeown (00:20:09):
And that's was encouraged me to make the move to Washington.

B. Reynolds (00:20:13):
Well, yeah, it's a, it, and that's... the move to Washington must've been very interesting too. Now you'd heard about the, about the clinic down there, had you, before the friendship- friendship animal clinic-

Donald McKeown (00:20:22):
Friendship Animal Hospital-

B. Reynolds (00:20:22):
... was that the name of it, yeah?

Donald McKeown (00:20:22):
... that's right-

B. Reynolds (00:20:23):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:20:23):
... and I heard that through the- the, uh, fellow who ran that at the time was Canadian-

B. Reynolds (00:20:29):
Right.

Donald McKeown (00:20:29):
... and, uh, he- he was looking for a veterinarian and he had sent back, uh, word to Canada that he would like to interview a student, so, I went down and I took the job.

B. Reynolds (00:20:42):
How did, well lets- let's just go back to what you mentioned, I think, briefly before Don, the fact that there was a lot of the, of the- the old profession, er, were Canadians, in the Northeastern part of the United States at that point-

Donald McKeown (00:20:51):
Well-

B. Reynolds (00:20:51):
... so he'd gone down there and started this thing, had he then?

Donald McKeown (00:20:53):
... Yeah, I think, uh, there were a number of veterinarians from- from Guelph that went there in the early '30s or mid '30s, and, um, uh, when they needed a veterinarian, they would go back to the Ontario Veterinary College and-

B. Reynolds (00:21:07):
True.

Donald McKeown (00:21:07):
... as a, as a, as I followed, and, um, [crosstalk]-

B. Reynolds (00:21:11):
Now had they approached you before you went with to Dr. Buck in Waterloo, or no?

Donald McKeown (00:21:14):
No.

B. Reynolds (00:21:14):
No, no.

Donald McKeown (00:21:15):
This was, (laughs), subsequent, and, um, and there was no veterinary college, uh, right in the center east of the United States, center east coast, and the- they didn't have very many opportunities to get veterinarians, uh, at that time. Now there's course there's lots of veterinarian. But, um, uh, they, uh, would go down there and then, uh, between, up until about 1964, the Canadians, veterinarians were so numerous that they controlled the veterinary politics, I guess, of- of Virginia, and of Maryland and Washington D.C.

B. Reynolds (00:21:54):
Now, at that point, you'd got married, am I correct, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:21:57):
Yes, I got married, uh, halfway through school, in- in '55-

B. Reynolds (00:22:03):
Right.

Donald McKeown (00:22:03):
... when, and we had one child, and when I graduated we went down.

B. Reynolds (00:22:07):
So this was another one of these big-time transitions, wasn't it?

Donald McKeown (00:22:10):
Oh, that was a huge transition, (laughs), and you're supposed to grow with them, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:22:13):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:22:15):
Or grow into them.

B. Reynolds (00:22:16):
That's-

Donald McKeown (00:22:17):
Now that was a hu- that was another culture shock, uh.

B. Reynolds (00:22:20):
... Was it also a- a tough decision? I mean, the horse, or at least the heifer was one of the influences, I'm certain, from what you said-

Donald McKeown (00:22:25):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:22:26):
... Don, but there had to be, you know, how would, how would your wife react to that, with here you're-

Donald McKeown (00:22:30):
Well-

B. Reynolds (00:22:30):
... saying, "Come on, we're going to Washington," or what, it's?

Donald McKeown (00:22:32):
... er, she was reluctant, because, uh, of course her family live in Fergus here, and, uh, and-

B. Reynolds (00:22:37):
And she's, and her na- maiden name was Gao, right?

Donald McKeown (00:22:39):
... That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:22:39):
And that's an old, old-

Donald McKeown (00:22:41):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:22:41):
... farmers Fergus name?

Donald McKeown (00:22:42):
Yeah, and grew up just down the river here.

B. Reynolds (00:22:44):
Right, okay.

Donald McKeown (00:22:45):
And, um, as a matter of fact her family used to own this property, but, um, uh, we, uh, uh, we kinda did it as an adventure, with the idea of staying for a year, in our minds, and look I don't think that was in the minds of the people who hired us, but, uh-

B. Reynolds (00:23:03):
No, they were, (laughs)-

Donald McKeown (00:23:04):
... it was an opportunity to- to actually earn some money, because we needed money, (laughs), and, uh, an opportunity to- to, uh, grow, er, in experience with veterinary medicine, because the practice of small animal medicine in those days was much more advanced in the United States, overall than here.

B. Reynolds (00:23:23):
... and in what, in what way Don, because they were looking to-

Donald McKeown (00:23:25):
In the, in the mid 50's.

B. Reynolds (00:23:26):
... yeah, but they were looking to Canadians though to do the- the actual work, or at their-

Donald McKeown (00:23:29):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (00:23:29):
... their practice it.

Donald McKeown (00:23:30):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:23:31):
So, they were, but when you say, "They're more advanced," why were they more advanced then, because-

Donald McKeown (00:23:34):
Well, they- the practice of veterinary medicine, the- the- the way the practice was running, we had a huge practice and- and, uh, I guess, it was the method of running the business, not so much the technical-

B. Reynolds (00:23:45):
... Right.

Donald McKeown (00:23:46):
... stuff. But, uh, yeah, and of course, uh, from that experience, uh, because it was such a large volume practice that I ve- very quickly I settled in, and I was only doing surgery, and the other fellers didn't like doing surgery very much, and so as a result, I took, uh, postgraduate courses and was able to come back to Canada as a surgeon at the veterinary school. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to do that.

B. Reynolds (00:24:12):
[crosstalk], now when you say, this would be in 1957 or eight that you went down there?

Donald McKeown (00:24:15):
50, '55.

B. Reynolds (00:24:17):
So sorry, yeah it is, it's '50-

Donald McKeown (00:24:19):
'58. '58 I went down.

B. Reynolds (00:24:21):
... yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:24:21):
Married in '55, (laughs), yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:24:23):
In '55, you went down there in '58-

Donald McKeown (00:24:25):
'58.

B. Reynolds (00:24:25):
... now surgery at that point, what did it entail, when you're doing animal surgery, it wasn't as advanced, I'm sure, as it is today then, is it or not?

Donald McKeown (00:24:31):
No, er, it- it wasn't, but, um, because of the volume they had, and, uh, because there was, uh, a number of people in the practice who were interested in advancing the practice, I guess, um, I think our practice in Washington was certainly one of the leading ones, er, technically, because of our ability to, uh, teach each other and go to, uh, courses, postgraduate courses, and, uh-

B. Reynolds (00:25:02):
And their practice is entirely small animals then, so you gotta-

Donald McKeown (00:25:04):
... That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:25:04):
... you get rid of the heifers at that point, for sure-

Donald McKeown (00:25:06):
It did [crosstalk].

B. Reynolds (00:25:06):
... you're not gonna have many heifers walking around Pennsylvania Avenue-

Donald McKeown (00:25:08):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:25:08):
... I take it then.

Donald McKeown (00:25:09):
No.

B. Reynolds (00:25:09):
(laughs), no?

Donald McKeown (00:25:09):
No, uh, in this hospital, that we had a- a s- um, a lay staff of, um, about 30 people, and a capacity for keeping a 150 animals our-

B. Reynolds (00:25:23):
So this was a big-

Donald McKeown (00:25:24):
... It was a big operation.

B. Reynolds (00:25:25):
... a big operation, yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:25:25):
Yes, it was, huge.

B. Reynolds (00:25:26):
Yeah. And started by a Canadian?

Donald McKeown (00:25:30):
Pardon?

B. Reynolds (00:25:30):
And started by a Canadian?

Donald McKeown (00:25:30):
Yes-

B. Reynolds (00:25:30):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:25:30):
... oh yes.

B. Reynolds (00:25:31):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:25:31):
And, uh, not by me, but I came in at the end when the-

B. Reynolds (00:25:34):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:25:35):
... they had already started and got it rolling.

B. Reynolds (00:25:36):
Now is there still a Canadian connection today, or do you know?

Donald McKeown (00:25:39):
No, it isn't. Uh, t- my two partners have passed on, and, uh, the p- the practice was sold to another fellow, and now I think they have over 20 veterinarians in the same practice, and run a, and run a-

B. Reynolds (00:25:54):
[crosstalk].

Donald McKeown (00:25:54):
... at the hospital 24 hours a day-

B. Reynolds (00:25:55):
Yeah, seven days a week, 365 days a year.

Donald McKeown (00:25:57):
... is that right, (laughs)?

B. Reynolds (00:25:58):
Yeah, yeah, that's, and their patient, 24 hours a day, right?

Donald McKeown (00:26:00):
Well you-

B. Reynolds (00:26:01):
I think I read somewhere too that they're- they're now treating over 50,000 animals a year, would that be-

Donald McKeown (00:26:06):
... Yes, that could be, I-

B. Reynolds (00:26:07):
... but I thought I read that somewhere.

Donald McKeown (00:26:08):
... so you're more up to day than I am, (laughs), Bob.

B. Reynolds (00:26:09):
Well, I looked for this, this is where the computer comes in handy, just-

Donald McKeown (00:26:12):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:26:12):
... when you're wanting to find these things.

Donald McKeown (00:26:13):
But it was a big hos- it's a big hospital.

B. Reynolds (00:26:14):
Right. So you, er, met, er, eh, you, uh, then when you first went down there, you were obviously sort of a junior on the scale, were you too then, as far as having just recently graduated?

Donald McKeown (00:26:24):
I- indeed, indeed I was. And, uh, but, um, as far as the pay scale, relative to Canadian pay scale, it, I guess, I was the highest paid veterinarian at that time when I graduated, and, uh, within, uh, eight years I owned a third, er, of that practice, because I bought in as I went, and they were very generous with me so that I could buy-in, and then within, uh, within another, uh, two years I owned half. So when I left I owned half of the business as-

B. Reynolds (00:26:56):
This was a pretty happy move then, wasn't it-

Donald McKeown (00:26:58):
... oh.

B. Reynolds (00:26:58):
... oh, but it, that must've been a really-

Donald McKeown (00:27:00):
It was very-

B. Reynolds (00:27:01):
... It shaped your whole life.

Donald McKeown (00:27:02):
... oh it did so. It really did.

B. Reynolds (00:27:03):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:27:03):
It shaped, and, um, it was a, an- and not only technically, and financially s- I, very valuable, but socially it was great, because we made some wonderful friends and-

B. Reynolds (00:27:14):
Well, I'm sure you must've.

Donald McKeown (00:27:15):
... we still have them there.

B. Reynolds (00:27:15):
I'm sure you must've.

Donald McKeown (00:27:16):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:27:18):
And- and, uh, it must've been a hard decision for you to come back to Canada, having spent a lifetime in, uh, in animal medicine, I guess, is that an easy, a good way of saying it too, and it's a, uh, Don, I guess, it's been all aspects from practicing as a vet right through to- to doing a lot of other things and other areas of research and so forth and so on?

Donald McKeown (00:27:35):
Yeah, that's one of the advantage-

B. Reynolds (00:27:36):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:27:36):
... of having a veterinary education, because it allows you to move from one group, one- one area to another, and one discipline to another.

B. Reynolds (00:27:44):
More so than it does in the medical profession?

Donald McKeown (00:27:45):
I think so.

B. Reynolds (00:27:46):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:27:46):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:27:47):
Yeah. Well, we- we- we got you off the farm in Vasey, down to Oakwood Collegiate, then onto McMaster, then another year into a veterinary college in Guelph, and then to a, to a- uh, an animal clinic or- or in, uh, a practice in Waterloo, where you were about a year, and then we moved you down to Washington. So, all this happened in what, about a period of 10 years or so, 15 years?

Donald McKeown (00:28:06):
Ye- ye, (laughs), yes, that's right.

B. Reynolds (00:28:07):
Yeah, not bad, and you got married and had a child?

Donald McKeown (00:28:09):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:28:09):
So, this was a pretty busy, uh, busy period of time in your life?

Donald McKeown (00:28:12):
It was.

B. Reynolds (00:28:12):
And you then joined, er, the staff of- of the, uh, Friendship Animal Hospital in Washington D.C.? Talking about being the heart of the things, this was located pretty damn close to the White House, wasn't it then, or-

Donald McKeown (00:28:23):
Yeah, uh, within a couple of kilometers.

B. Reynolds (00:28:23):
... yeah, yeah, so you're right in the heart of Washington.

Donald McKeown (00:28:27):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (00:28:28):
This wasn't like the heifer you were riding up in Waterloo-

Donald McKeown (00:28:30):
(laughs), no.

B. Reynolds (00:28:31):
... and you told this story last week about-

Donald McKeown (00:28:32):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:28:33):
... about this night when the, when the transfusion material froze, and you had to go back and melt it in a Mennonite kitchen in Waterloo.

Donald McKeown (00:28:39):
Yeah, the environment of doing practice is much better.

B. Reynolds (00:28:41):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:28:42):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:28:43):
(laughs), well it was, it was different anyway, for sure, it was.

Donald McKeown (00:28:45):
Yes, indeed it was.

B. Reynolds (00:28:46):
Yeah, yeah. Uh, let's talk about that. You had some, I imagine some pretty interesting people that, uh, that were in association with this clinic, because it was pretty eminent, er, uh, clinic in that area, was it not?

Donald McKeown (00:28:58):
Yes, yes. And it still is actually, it's quite a-

B. Reynolds (00:29:00):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:29:01):
... But, uh, it was in- interesting because we had a lot of interesting client- clientele, um, because of our location, we were near the embassies, so we often looked after the people from other countries who were at the embassies, and we looked after, uh, for a while the White House, um, dogs and cats, uh, because of our location to it.

B. Reynolds (00:29:24):
Yeah, and we'll talk about that in a second too, but-

Donald McKeown (00:29:26):
All right.

B. Reynolds (00:29:26):
... lets, I was just, I couldn't help but think what you were telling me is, you said that when you went to McMaster you didn't, you needed some extra subjects, this was after you'd graduated from Oakwood Collegiate, and had already gone to the veterinarian college, and German was one of them, so here you were in the diplomatic circles of Washington. Did you advertise the fact that you could speak fluent German at that point, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:29:42):
No, I, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:29:42):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:29:44):
No, I, no indeed.

B. Reynolds (00:29:45):
Because those languages could've come in very handy, couldn't they?

Donald McKeown (00:29:47):
They could-

B. Reynolds (00:29:48):
Yeah, yeah-

Donald McKeown (00:29:48):
... with what was gonna happen.

B. Reynolds (00:29:50):
Well, tell- tell us what, er, what were these people and how did they get to the, to the animal clinic then, were they- they, would they call and you would go to the embassies, and things of that nature, or what?

Donald McKeown (00:30:00):
No. Rarely did we do that.

B. Reynolds (00:30:02):
No.

Donald McKeown (00:30:02):
Um, uh, we had almost an exclusively practice where people came, and made appointments and- and, uh, in order to run a large practice that was required-

B. Reynolds (00:30:14):
Okay, now, but for a second we'll go back to the embassy, talk about the presidential dogs and animals, and your pets then... you know, and it- it's interesting, all- all the presidents of the United States seem to have pets, don't they?

Donald McKeown (00:30:26):
... Well, they do and I- I think, um-

B. Reynolds (00:30:28):
It's the only friend they have left, or, (laughs)-

Donald McKeown (00:30:30):
... there is a, there is, there is a perception that if, um, they're on TV and have a pet or a wife or children, they're nice people.

B. Reynolds (00:30:35):
... (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:30:35):
... there's- there's a, (laughs), and so I think they play on that a little bit, because certainly-

B. Reynolds (00:30:41):
Well-

Donald McKeown (00:30:41):
... uh, uh, they've all had, and made a point of showing these animals, particularly Johnson when he picked the beagles up by the ears, and that didn't work so well, for him-

B. Reynolds (00:30:51):
... No.

Donald McKeown (00:30:51):
... politically.

B. Reynolds (00:30:51):
Was that bad for the dog, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:30:52):
It's not really bad for the dog-

B. Reynolds (00:30:52):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:30:53):
... it's bad for him, I think, overall.

B. Reynolds (00:30:55):
But it didn't, it didn't, it didn't create many friends for him, I don't think?

Donald McKeown (00:30:58):
No, (laughs), that's right.

B. Reynolds (00:30:59):
Especially beagle lovers, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:31:00):
No, that was pretty-

B. Reynolds (00:31:01):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:31:01):
... pretty bad thing to do.

B. Reynolds (00:31:02):
So, did you ever treat the- the Johnson dog then, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:31:05):
I did, I te- uh, at that time, uh, er, J- uh, when he was vice president I looked after his dogs, which were Him and Her, two beagles, and then, uh, uh, his daughter picked up a collie, or I think Lynda picked up a collie in, um, uh, Texas and they, a white collie, and they called it Blanco, so those three animals I was looking after before Kennedy was shot, and then when he became president, from vice president, then of course I was, I did go to the White House, because he was a little special, and, uh, I might add that, uh, uh, there is a story that, uh, uh, wh- his dog, he had another dog called Jeff, and Jeff was, um, Jeff was in the hospital with, uh, a- a- an intestinal problem, and, uh, and he, I think he genuinely l- liked animals, and liked his, yeah he liked this Jeff certainly, and I was at home, and I was on-call, and the children were out playing around the grill.

Donald McKeown (00:32:07):
I'd just lit the grill, and they were quite small, and they were running around the grill, and I was afraid they were gonna get burned, and the phone rang, and the ph- and the, (laughs), uh, I picked up the phone, and I was concentrating on this, and, er, and it said, "This is the president speaking," and I said, "The president of what," (laughs)?

B. Reynolds (00:32:24):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:32:27):
I wasn't thinking, and he was rea-

B. Reynolds (00:32:29):
Somewhat the line of a movie, isn't it, yeah?

Donald McKeown (00:32:31):
... yeah, (laughs), that's right.

B. Reynolds (00:32:31):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:32:31):
He was just spontaneous, and he was cool, like he didn't, he didn't make a point of it, he wanted to know how his dog was, and he was calling me at home at night, but, uh, yeah, that's a faux pas, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:32:40):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:32:42):
You don't do that to President Johnson, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:32:44):
Well, he s- he, well, I- I- I think he was an interesting character, I guess, wasn't he?

Donald McKeown (00:32:48):
Oh-

B. Reynolds (00:32:48):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:32:49):
... bad language, oh-

Speaker 3 (00:32:50):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:32:51):
... he was an interesting character.

B. Reynolds (00:32:52):
Well did you, when, er, eh, was he the dog that you went to the hospital, or went to the White House to treat?

Donald McKeown (00:32:57):
No, uh-

B. Reynolds (00:32:58):
No.

Donald McKeown (00:32:58):
... and, uh, that- that dog passed away.

B. Reynolds (00:33:01):
Oh, okay.

Donald McKeown (00:33:01):
It, and, uh, and then he had the two beagles, Him and Her, and Blanco when they were in the White House. That event occurred before he became president.

B. Reynolds (00:33:10):
Now, were they typical of every other owner of a pet, or not, or were they different?

Donald McKeown (00:33:15):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:33:16):
I mean, I know they weren't status-

Donald McKeown (00:33:18):
They were they're, that's good.

B. Reynolds (00:33:18):
... so-called, but-

Donald McKeown (00:33:18):
That's a leading question, um, they, uh, they were, uh, they like there, ig- the only disadvanta- difference to us that, um, uh, Mrs. Johnson-

B. Reynolds (00:33:31):
... Lady Bird.

Donald McKeown (00:33:32):
... Lady Bird, every time she got a bill, she called and complained about it.

B. Reynolds (00:33:36):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:33:36):
And that was different, but-

B. Reynolds (00:33:38):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:33:42):
... and, uh, (laughs), the, uh, but they-

Speaker 3 (00:33:42):
Shoo.

B. Reynolds (00:33:42):
I think Lyndon had her on a tight budget probably Don.

Donald McKeown (00:33:45):
Yeah, (laughs), that's right. Anyway, we just always expected that, and had a, eh, smile about that.

B. Reynolds (00:33:50):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:33:51):
But, uh, yeah, and then two days after, an interesting thing, about two days after Kennedy was shot, he was already in the hou- White House, or maybe three days, and I was called down to see how the dogs were fitting into their new environment, sorry, and, um, I would, um, uh, I called down and said I was coming to the White House, and I drove in... it would be on the, I guess, the south side of the White House, where the big lawn is, where they have the Easter egg search and all that, and- and, uh, I drove up to the back of the White House, and there was one guard there, and I, and he said, "What are you doing?" And I said, "I'm going into see the dogs." He- he said, "Fine, away you go."

Donald McKeown (00:34:37):
He didn't know who I was-

B. Reynolds (00:34:37):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:34:38):
... he didn't ask me my name.

B. Reynolds (00:34:39):
What a change, er-

Donald McKeown (00:34:41):
And then I got out of the car with my bag, walked into the White House, and at the bottom of the White House at the back, under the offices, um, there's a long hallway about 20-feet wide, and it must run the length of the White House, and I was walking down this hallway, Johnson came up the other way with two aides, and he was cursing them out something terrible, and he walked right on by me. Now here's the most important man in the world, probably, without any kind of, uh, security, not, and I had my black bag, you know, and how things have changed?

B. Reynolds (00:35:19):
Oh, remarkable, I mean you-

Donald McKeown (00:35:20):
Indeed, and this is three days after-

B. Reynolds (00:35:22):
... Yeah, that was before these, uh, these truck traps and everything that they have outside now, (laughs), and all these-

Donald McKeown (00:35:25):
... That's right.

Donald McKeown (00:35:26):
Yeah, yeah, no names-

B. Reynolds (00:35:27):
Checkout, no ID? Did you have to wear an ID-

Donald McKeown (00:35:29):
No ID.

B. Reynolds (00:35:29):
... when went in-

Donald McKeown (00:35:30):
Didn't even ask my name.

B. Reynolds (00:35:31):
... (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:35:33):
Isn't that something?

B. Reynolds (00:35:34):
It's- it's absolutely amazing, isn't it?

Donald McKeown (00:35:35):
It is.

B. Reynolds (00:35:35):
The world has changed that much.

Donald McKeown (00:35:37):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:35:37):
And in a relatively short period of time-

Donald McKeown (00:35:38):
Indeed.

B. Reynolds (00:35:38):
... if you think of it too. Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:35:40):
Indeed.

B. Reynolds (00:35:40):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:35:40):
Anyway, but, um-

B. Reynolds (00:35:41):
Well-

Donald McKeown (00:35:42):
... there was another story about the White House, (laughs), that, uh, uh, Lyndon, uh, Lynn- Luci, Luci, uh, the daughter, and she, um, she had a pet duck in the White House, and, uh-

B. Reynolds (00:35:56):
... (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:35:56):
... this duck, this, uh, er, uh, the chauffeur brought the duck into the hospital saying that the duck had diarrhea-

B. Reynolds (00:36:04):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:36:04):
... yeah, and, uh, you know, ducks don't have firm stool anyway, (laughs), much, but, (laughs)-

B. Reynolds (00:36:09):
No.

Donald McKeown (00:36:10):
... hey, we won't go there, anyway, uh, uh, he brought their duck in, and, uh, I- I kept it for several days, and we treated it, and he got the diarrhea under control, but it developed a septicemia, in other words the bacteria is circulating through the bloodstream, and it settled in the joints, and he was a little stiff when he went home, but it was-

B. Reynolds (00:36:30):
(laughs), and so was the stool, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:36:32):
... (laughs), anyway, uh, um, and, uh-

B. Reynolds (00:36:35):
Yeah, is this gonna get better, or, for Lynda or not?

Donald McKeown (00:36:38):
... oh yeah, we'll come to that, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:36:39):
(laughs), oh, okay, you'll come to that, all right, sorry.

Donald McKeown (00:36:40):
Anyway, uh, um-

Speaker 3 (00:36:42):
(laughs), and this is

Donald McKeown (00:36:43):
... true to form, um, when, uh, when Lady Bird got the bill, she called up and said, "This is an astronomical bill for a duck."

B. Reynolds (00:36:51):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:36:51):
And I said-

Speaker 3 (00:36:52):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:36:52):
... and I remember it was 54 dollars and 54 cents, you know, and I said, "Yes, it is, (laughs), um," yeah, I said, "You had the opportunity to," and I said, "It takes as much time to treat a duck as it does anything else, and- and, um, the, and we just really had to charge you that much, and I apologize, but that's what the bill is," and she said, she was disgusted with that, but, um, and I said, "Why didn't you put the do- duck down if you didn't wanna treat it," and she said, "Well, Luci was really attached to this duck, it was really an important part of her life." And I said, "Well, I can understand that."

Donald McKeown (00:37:27):
So about a month later Luci comes into the hospital with the chauffeur with one of the beagles. The beagle's on the table, the chauffeur is there, Luci's there, just chewing his bottom out, because he wouldn't let her drive the limousine, and, uh, and, uh, it was embarrassing, because she was really pouring it on him, and I said after they got a break in the conversation, I said, "How's the duck," and she said, "What duck?" I said, "Your pet duck that was, it was here." 'What duck, oh the duck," she said that duck developed a terrible arthritis, couldn't fly and couldn't walk-

Speaker 3 (00:38:08):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:38:11):
... and aposteme, and then went back chewing out the poor chauffeur, like she didn't really care, (laughs), very much about the duck.

B. Reynolds (00:38:15):
But this- this wasn't a special duck at that point, [crosstalk]-

Donald McKeown (00:38:17):
Yeah, well, (laughs), it didn't seem to be, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:38:18):
... that Lady Bird has told you about.

Donald McKeown (00:38:20):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:38:21):
Or maybe it was at dinner one evening, I don't know, (laughs)?

Donald McKeown (00:38:23):
Well maybe.

B. Reynolds (00:38:23):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:38:24):
Maybe yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:38:25):
Well, it's some other, it's some interesting stories. Now, Nixon was a cat lover then, was he, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:38:30):
Yes, he had a dog too, and I never treated the dog. I just treated the cat once, and I, yeah, I forget the name of the dog... Checkers.

B. Reynolds (00:38:38):
Checkers, yeah, that's right, I've kinda-

Donald McKeown (00:38:39):
But, uh-

B. Reynolds (00:38:39):
... forgotten too about Nixon.

Donald McKeown (00:38:40):
... yeah, that, uh, he had a cat-

B. Reynolds (00:38:42):
Right, yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:38:42):
... called Nixie, and, uh-

B. Reynolds (00:38:44):
That's another selection of name-

Donald McKeown (00:38:45):
... isn't it though. Uh.

B. Reynolds (00:38:46):
... yeah, and have you ever thought of that or not, I, as soon as I read it-

Donald McKeown (00:38:49):
No, I never did.

B. Reynolds (00:38:49):
... I thought, "Do- does that tell you," and I was gonna ask you this question, generally speaking, "Do animals reflect the personality of their owners?"

Donald McKeown (00:38:58):
I think owners select animals-

B. Reynolds (00:39:01):
Eh, do you think?

Donald McKeown (00:39:02):
... that do compliment them, or- or fill a need, and that can be psychological or physical, you know, like you see some people buying pit bulls, when it's to fill a psychological need for them to show aggression and dominance, or whatever. It, I think that's rea-

B. Reynolds (00:39:19):
Oh.

Donald McKeown (00:39:20):
... really true.

B. Reynolds (00:39:22):
Well, the- the reason I asked that really was when I read your notes about the fact that the cat was called Nixie, I thought, "That's an unusual choice of a name," because obviously it's someone who wants to make sure Nixon stays in the whole picture, do- isn't it-

Donald McKeown (00:39:33):
That's rig- yeah, that's right.

B. Reynolds (00:39:33):
... or not, and I- I thought.

Donald McKeown (00:39:34):
But you-

B. Reynolds (00:39:35):
This is almost part of the personalities you read about, anyway I never met the man, but I mean, it-

Donald McKeown (00:39:37):
... No.

B. Reynolds (00:39:38):
... it is sort of part- part of his personality.

Donald McKeown (00:39:40):
Oh, absolutely.

B. Reynolds (00:39:41):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:39:41):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:39:41):
Part, but it, but on the other hand Johnson's, it's not very imaginative to call Him and Her, right, (laughs)?

Donald McKeown (00:39:46):
No, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:39:48):
(laughs). Well maybe that reflects something too-

Donald McKeown (00:39:50):
Yeah, maybe, I believe it does, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:39:54):
... I don't know, (laughs)? There- there seems to be a trend in the US, and has it existed in Canada, America, Prime Ministers had pets this way, or not, or I, or I guess we don't hear about them as much anyway?

Donald McKeown (00:40:00):
At least they're not promoted. I'm not-

B. Reynolds (00:40:02):
They're not as famous certainly.

Donald McKeown (00:40:03):
... I mean, I'm- I'm not aware of that.

B. Reynolds (00:40:03):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:40:04):
No, that's true.

B. Reynolds (00:40:05):
Well, I, you know, as a kid I can remember back now, because I grew up in the ages of- of, uh, FDR, Franklin Delano Roosevelt-

Donald McKeown (00:40:10):
Absolutely.

B. Reynolds (00:40:10):
... and that was Fala that was the-

Donald McKeown (00:40:11):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:40:12):
... Scott, uh, terrier, wasn't it, or not Scottish, but black.

Donald McKeown (00:40:14):
Yes, he was, yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:40:14):
Black Scottish Terrier?

Donald McKeown (00:40:15):
That's right, yeah. Indeed, yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:40:17):
And- and that was a famous dog. I mean, that was-

Donald McKeown (00:40:19):
Sure.

B. Reynolds (00:40:19):
... that was everywhere where he was almost, wasn't it?

Donald McKeown (00:40:21):
That's right, yeah. And the Queen with her-

B. Reynolds (00:40:24):
Corgis-

Donald McKeown (00:40:24):
... corgis, and so on and-

B. Reynolds (00:40:25):
... yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:40:25):
... there is an association, and there's no question that people that have a dog, and you're walking down the street, you know, research has been done, there's, uh, like maybe 15 times more chance that a stranger will speak to you, than if you're pushing a baby, in a carriage.

B. Reynolds (00:40:43):
Oh sure.

Donald McKeown (00:40:43):
And so there is some, association with animals, dogs particularly, that, uh-

B. Reynolds (00:40:49):
That's a common talking hanging ground isn't it-

Donald McKeown (00:40:50):
... it is yeah-

B. Reynolds (00:40:50):
... in a way, yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:40:51):
... and- and there is an association, I think, that a person with a dog is just probably a nicer person.

B. Reynolds (00:40:58):
Well, it depends what the dog is, doesn't it?

Donald McKeown (00:40:59):
Yeah, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:40:59):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:41:01):
It does, I don't know but that seems-

B. Reynolds (00:41:02):
I- I never, oh, I always watch those people walking Dobermans and it's like, "I wonder," (laughs)?

Donald McKeown (00:41:06):
Yeah, that's right.

B. Reynolds (00:41:06):
And I, and-

Donald McKeown (00:41:06):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:41:07):
... that's a, not to knock on any breed of dog, but I, you know-

Donald McKeown (00:41:09):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:41:10):
... I guess, because I guess, er, we- we can get into this a little bit later too, but I guess the dog is not, is not, er, does not develop a personality because it's a certain breed, it- it's- it's influenced I would imagine by the way it's been treated and that?

Donald McKeown (00:41:22):
It's, no I- I- I would say, yeah, well certainly that's important, but personality, um, behavior of a dog is almost all inherited, and then it can be-

B. Reynolds (00:41:32):
From the breed-

Donald McKeown (00:41:32):
... all-

B. Reynolds (00:41:33):
... now, or what, or from?

Donald McKeown (00:41:34):
... from a breed or a family.

B. Reynolds (00:41:35):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:41:36):
Like for example aggression, or fear, or, is almost always inherited, and then you can have a learned component on top of that, for example, an animal can become fearful of a broom, for example, and I've learned that brooms are bad, because somebody chased me with a broom, but, uh, the overall personality or behavior's genetic. So, that, uh, it can be influenced particularly at certain periods of the dog's life say from, uh, up to six weeks, it's really important that the puppies stay with the puppies and learns a lot puppy stuff.

Donald McKeown (00:42:15):
After six weeks it can't learn that, er, learn things like soft bite and play and so on, and then from-

B. Reynolds (00:42:21):
Because it's been so, it's- it's, the- the whole, their whole life process has developed to the point where it- it can't be taught, retaught, that then again?

Donald McKeown (00:42:28):
... that's- that's right, or if the animal is treated really badly between with pain, or something between six and 10 weeks of age, that is not, cannot be reversed, in other words, you can make the an- destroy the animal by the way you deal with it during the, those, so, there are critical periods of development, and there are so in people too, I understand, er, I read some research on children, if they get treated badly during certain phases, they're destroyed for life, criminally insane and that sort of thing. Uh, and that's true with dogs, a little work, er, very little work has been done with cats, but dogs certainly.

B. Reynolds (00:43:07):
Why- why are, uh, well this a stupid question, I guess, but I, when you said that, cats are not very trainable, is that true or not?

Donald McKeown (00:43:15):
No, you can train them, but they're, they just, um, cats are another bag, but cats have a gen- there are some very friendly cats, that inher- inherit that friendly gene, and also inherit a low fear response. Those are the cats that are like dogs, they follow you around, they're a nuisance, they wanna be petted all the time. Most, and that covers all breeds, all kinds of cats, because those genes are for fear, and friendliness, are in most of all, there seems to be a predominance in tricolored cats, but- but the, uh, the other, um, uh, these, most cats have either a high fear response, or they, um, they have a, uh, uh, not friendly.

Donald McKeown (00:44:06):
So, if they have both of those, they really not trainable, those are the things that interfere with trainability.

B. Reynolds (00:44:11):
But we've sort of jumped ahead, but it's interesting, and I want-

Donald McKeown (00:44:13):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (00:44:13):
... to talk about this anyway, and I- I've, let's stay with it, because one of your, after you come back to Canada, from- from, uh, uh, Washington, and you're going on with your, uh, next of 54 different lives you've had doing things-

Donald McKeown (00:44:26):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:44:26):
... you did, you have got now recent, more recently into the behavioral science of- of animals, small animals, is that not correct, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:44:32):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:44:32):
And that's really what we've all of a sudden by accident got talking about.

Donald McKeown (00:44:35):
Yeah, that's right, (laughs), uh, maybe, I'm sorry I jumped ahead-

B. Reynolds (00:44:37):
Hey Richard, you, no- no- no, Richard Nixon started all of this, this is where it all started.

Donald McKeown (00:44:41):
Yeah, (laughs), yeah, right. Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:44:41):
So, anyway, (laughs), but- but, let's talk more about it, I, uh, an- and I was intrigued that- that, uh, you were saying about, when I asked you about the- the owner's personality being reflected in the dog or vise versa and so forth and so on. Uh, is that, there has to be some of that though that gets into the dog, is there-

Donald McKeown (00:44:58):
Sure-

B. Reynolds (00:44:58):
... is there not?

Donald McKeown (00:44:58):
... there, er, how the owner treats the dog-

B. Reynolds (00:45:01):
Right.

Donald McKeown (00:45:01):
... and- and that reflects their personality-

B. Reynolds (00:45:03):
Right.

Donald McKeown (00:45:04):
... and so it- it certainly does have effect in a learning component-

B. Reynolds (00:45:08):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:45:08):
... to augment what the dog gets genetically or depress it, you know?

B. Reynolds (00:45:13):
Are you, are you intrigued with the work you've done in that field Don in- in, uh, the advances that have been made with dogs as far as them being helpers to humans, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:45:24):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (00:45:25):
I mean, your old image at my age then of a dog is-

Donald McKeown (00:45:27):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:45:27):
... some, a dog that worked on the farm, and they nipped at the cattle's heels-

Donald McKeown (00:45:31):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:45:31):
... and brought it in-

Donald McKeown (00:45:32):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:45:32):
... this has gone well beyond that now, has it not?

Donald McKeown (00:45:34):
Oh indeed.

B. Reynolds (00:45:34):
Talk about it for a minute, am I right or not?

Donald McKeown (00:45:36):
Well I could, I could, er, um, say that my father, when I told him that I was leaving dairy practice, that I was gonna do dogs and cats, he said, "You'd starve to death," you know, so the rural attitude it, towards it, to follow in what you say, was there, not that he didn't like dogs and so on, but he didn't think people would spend much money on them, but, uh, the- the science of, uh, animal behavior in the last 20 years has moved from the laboratory, where you're ta- looking at mice and rats and so on, to applied animal behavior that we deal with every day, and understand how to diagnose animals problems, how to treat them, and/or and maybe prevent them.

B. Reynolds (00:46:19):
Do they, I guess, animals have both mental and physical problems, do they, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:46:23):
Indeed.

B. Reynolds (00:46:23):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:46:24):
Indeed, they do, but from a veterinarian's point of view and most of what we deal with is behavior, like for example, "Why does my cat pee on the bed," and I can tell you one story and the lady-

B. Reynolds (00:46:35):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:46:35):
... called up and said, (laughs), um, "Every time I talk on the phone, the dog gets its food bish and bangs it on the floor, and if I don't pay attention to it, it runs upstairs and pulls the phone off the night table and urinates on it," you know, those are the kinds, (laughs), of stories.

B. Reynolds (00:46:52):
That's amazing, isn't it, or not that?

Donald McKeown (00:46:53):
Yeah, and I got, but I got paid for dealing with that, isn't that fun?

B. Reynolds (00:46:57):
Oh, I think it's great fun, yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:46:58):
Yeah, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:46:59):
That's a, that's a study worth a lot of time almost-

Donald McKeown (00:47:01):
(laughs), you think-

B. Reynolds (00:47:01):
... and I'm being serious now-

Donald McKeown (00:47:02):
... yeah, that's right.

B. Reynolds (00:47:03):
... saying, "Why does a dog do that," will-

Donald McKeown (00:47:04):
Well-

B. Reynolds (00:47:04):
... we ever know why or not, we did-

Donald McKeown (00:47:06):
... well, yeah, we could conjecture, but, eh, the- the dog had been conditioned that, when she, to do the banging of the dish, when she was occupied on the phone, because it wasn't paying attention to the dog, normally when she'd sit there, she'd be petting the dog, the dog learned one time that if I go get the dish and pound on it, then she interrupts and pays more attention to me, escalating the behavior of banging the dish. The phone, I can't, I can't, I have trouble figuring out why the dog would go up to the phone, but the phone would have all her pheromones on it, a lot of pheromones, and the same with a cat urinating on the bed, it's a conflict solving problem for the cat, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:47:46):
I'm in conflict with the peoples whose odors are on that bed, pheromones, so if I pee on them I feel better, and it's just like a dog running down the street, and they urinate from place to place, and they're covering up other dogs, (laughs), pheromones, and their competition for the area.

B. Reynolds (00:48:02):
So, this becomes their area?

Donald McKeown (00:48:03):
Yeah, so the-

B. Reynolds (00:48:04):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:48:05):
... lay, the- the dog runs up, pulls the phone off, he knows the concentrated pheromones are on the phone and- and urinates on it, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:48:15):
(laughs).

Speaker 3 (00:48:15):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:48:15):
All right, very-

Donald McKeown (00:48:15):
I hope that's not-

B. Reynolds (00:48:15):
... interesting.

Donald McKeown (00:48:15):
... too complicated, (laughs)?

B. Reynolds (00:48:16):
No, no, I think I under- understand it- it-

Donald McKeown (00:48:18):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:48:18):
... it's intriguing to me, is the, uh, it must be fascinating to, er, be involved in this behavioral study, because this, it's-

Donald McKeown (00:48:27):
Well-

B. Reynolds (00:48:27):
... you know-

Donald McKeown (00:48:29):
... it's phenomenal.

B. Reynolds (00:48:29):
... stories like this must be wild and- and furious at times, I don't know-

Donald McKeown (00:48:32):
Oh, they're great.

B. Reynolds (00:48:32):
... (laughs)?

Donald McKeown (00:48:33):
Yeah, they're great, and, uh, uh, you know, and to try to solve the problem for the people is.

B. Reynolds (00:48:39):
What's the strangest dog you've ever met?

Donald McKeown (00:48:41):
The strangest dog, (laughs)?

B. Reynolds (00:48:42):
The strangest dog you've ever met, (laughs)?

Donald McKeown (00:48:43):
That might be the one urinating on the phone, might be the closest, (laughs)-

B. Reynolds (00:48:46):
Yeah, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:48:46):
... but, uh, I- I'd have to think about that, I don't, uh-

B. Reynolds (00:48:49):
Like-

Donald McKeown (00:48:51):
... I guess, the most unusual dog I ever saw briefly, was, uh, uh, the Russian's Sputnik dog.

B. Reynolds (00:48:59):
Oh, yeah, this was-

Donald McKeown (00:49:01):
Uh-

B. Reynolds (00:49:01):
... this was the gift to Kennedy, wasn't it?

Donald McKeown (00:49:02):
... Kennedy, yeah, and then he gave it to his sister, uh, [crosstalk]-

B. Reynolds (00:49:05):
[crosstalk], yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:49:06):
... and they brought the dog into the hospital once, and I saw that dog shortly after they got it.

B. Reynolds (00:49:11):
So this dog has been in space now?

Donald McKeown (00:49:12):
Yeah, this was one of the first dogs, (laughs)-

B. Reynolds (00:49:14):
That's fascinating to start off with-

Donald McKeown (00:49:15):
... yeah-

B. Reynolds (00:49:15):
... yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:49:15):
... that's right. So that was kind of fun, that was probably the most unusual dog I've seen.

B. Reynolds (00:49:19):
A well-behaved dog though?

Donald McKeown (00:49:20):
Excellent, a little mutt-

B. Reynolds (00:49:21):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:49:22):
... little, very small.

B. Reynolds (00:49:23):
Did it, did it, er, did you ever hear whether it yelled at the, or evaded the moon, or what, (laughs)-

Donald McKeown (00:49:26):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:49:27):
... or I don't know?

Donald McKeown (00:49:28):
No, I've never have, no, I was so enthralled, I, the- the, another veterinarian in the practice was looking after it at the time, and I did get a chance to see it and hold it, and.

B. Reynolds (00:49:36):
Why did Kennedy give it away, did you ever hear or not, he just?

Donald McKeown (00:49:39):
Well, he didn't want a, (laughs), dog.

B. Reynolds (00:49:40):
He didn't want one?

Donald McKeown (00:49:41):
He didn't want a dog, no, but he, I don't know what happened to the dog in the end, because, uh, I never as I say, I never looked after the Shriver's personally.

B. Reynolds (00:49:49):
How do you, I was gonna say, how do you, how do you, when the Russian's give you something like that, how do you, you have to quietly give it away, don't you, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:49:54):
Yeah, (laughs), that's right.

B. Reynolds (00:49:55):
Otherwise the Cold War is gonna escalate, immediately, (laughs)-

Donald McKeown (00:49:59):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:49:59):
... [crosstalk].

Donald McKeown (00:49:59):
Yeah. Yeah-

B. Reynolds (00:50:01):
Uh-

Donald McKeown (00:50:01):
... that was interesting.

B. Reynolds (00:50:02):
... where, well then go back to what I was asking before Don, if you don't mind, and that is the- the, uh, the advancements that have been made in dogs especially being human helpers if you will, this has got-

Donald McKeown (00:50:15):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:50:15):
... now that is all part of this too, is it or not and training?

Donald McKeown (00:50:18):
It is.

B. Reynolds (00:50:18):
You know, my- my, I remember when we first got our- our dog, uh, uh, in later life, uh, well we, the English lady who is, who has the famous dog, Barbara Woodhouse-

Donald McKeown (00:50:29):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (00:50:30):
... and her, what was it Walkies?

Donald McKeown (00:50:31):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:50:31):
And, uh, you know, Angie was this devoted, or devoted at least to watching this program, to learn how to train this dog properly.

Donald McKeown (00:50:38):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:50:39):
... and she said, "Now when you take him out, you gotta say, 'Walkies, walkies,'" and I said, "Over my dead body am I gonna,"-

Donald McKeown (00:50:43):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:50:44):
... be walking down the- a-

Donald McKeown (00:50:45):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:50:45):
... street in Fergus, or Elora saying-

Donald McKeown (00:50:47):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:50:47):
... "Walkies, walkies," and so forth.

Donald McKeown (00:50:48):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:50:49):
But what, but what are the, what are the secrets of-

Donald McKeown (00:50:51):
Well, well, I there here what, uh, what really has happened, and what happened over the last 25 years was it was a recognition of the human-animal bond, and it's- it's positive and negative impacts on humans, and I had the good fortune to be Co-Chairman of a, of a World Conference in Montreal, uh, I think it was '88, uh, you'll have to look, (laughs)-

B. Reynolds (00:51:15):
... (laughs), I'm looking it up for you-

Donald McKeown (00:51:15):
... anyway.

B. Reynolds (00:51:16):
... but I- I don't see it right away, but anyway, yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:51:18):
Anyway, it's somewhere there, and, um, we had, uh, we put together a- a conference f- of about, uh, a 150 speakers from 35 countries. Had a conference in Montreal, which was well-attended by 3,000 people, and each of them were talking about their programs, and the value of the human-animal bond, and it's a positive effect. For example, you find dogs going to old-age homes, and you find, uh, people that are handicapped riding horses. Uh, the Seeing Eye for the blind, uh, the, um, service dogs that, uh-

B. Reynolds (00:51:57):
Dog- dogs to help with- with people that are deaf too, right?

Donald McKeown (00:52:02):
... yeah, right.

B. Reynolds (00:52:02):
The people who are deaf too, [crosstalk]-

Donald McKeown (00:52:02):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (00:52:03):
... [crosstalk 00:52:03].

Donald McKeown (00:52:03):
Yes, that's right, alert dogs-

B. Reynolds (00:52:04):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:52:04):
... and, um, and, uh, a fabulous story, er, of a local person who has as service dog, his, uh, Tommy and, um, Don Rodante's son, who is, um, really, uh, crippled from numerous surgeries he's had, and he walked the Appalachian Trail with the help of his service dog that carried his food.

B. Reynolds (00:52:26):
Isn't that amazing stuff?

Donald McKeown (00:52:27):
Yeah, and he wrote a book about that, and, uh, it, uh, these dogs can have a very positive effect, for example, the people, men, I guess, men, because the study was done in men who have a dog, and have a heat attack, live two years longer than someone who doesn't have a dog, a male.

B. Reynolds (00:52:47):
This- this- this, um, relationship between dogs, and, I guess, other animals too, but, I guess, we're concentrating to some degree on dogs, because of the service dog aspect of the thing, but these bonds have gotta be enormously strong, haven't they, that- that you-

Donald McKeown (00:53:01):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (00:53:01):
... and someone that's, that has a service dog, that's nature, this has gotta be a very, very sad when that dog-

Donald McKeown (00:53:06):
Oh yeah.

B. Reynolds (00:53:06):
... reaches the end of it's like.

Donald McKeown (00:53:07):
Yeah, it's critical. I was able to be a consultant for the, um, the, uh, police, quite a number of police forces, and for, uh, the customs dog people-

B. Reynolds (00:53:19):
These are sniffers now that you're talk, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:53:21):
... and, yeah, but for guns and bombs, and, um, when they'd have a problem with one of their dogs in the training process, they would call me in, and that was really interesting, and, um, when one of these dogs got shot or- or died, or had to be taken out of service, these fellows were devastated-

B. Reynolds (00:53:40):
Well, I'm sure.

Donald McKeown (00:53:41):
... uh, because they're with that dog-

B. Reynolds (00:53:42):
They're so close all of the time.

Donald McKeown (00:53:43):
... all the time, and they trained the dog, and- and, uh, i- in, and- and often their life depended on that dog.

B. Reynolds (00:53:49):
Right, right. Right, are, there- there are some breeds that are more assistive or not, that you, certainly you see certain breeds that are doing sniffing in airports and this type of thing, and other breeds that aren't, is that-

Donald McKeown (00:53:59):
Well, that's tru-

B. Reynolds (00:53:59):
... a common thing too, or it's just that it's-

Donald McKeown (00:54:00):
... true, but it's more related than, the number of cells that you, the dogs sniff with, are all about the same, except for the bulldogs that have a shoved up nose, you know? They have fewer cells in their nose, (laughs), to p- smell with, but, uh, long-nosed dogs all have the same ability to smell. It's the trainability that makes the difference-

B. Reynolds (00:54:22):
... I- I, since- I since that you told me that story, I was thinking the first experience I had with the sniffer dogs, I think, was in Australia, and they were, I think, they were sniffing not only for drugs at that point, but sniffing for fruit, because of the very strict- straight regulation about taking fruit into Australia, than you can.

Donald McKeown (00:54:34):
... Oh, I see, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:54:35):
But there were, uh, they sort of give you the, when you see them first in an airport, you wonder, "What's going on," and you hope he's not gonna do anything in that bag, is he, because it's mine, (laughs)?

Donald McKeown (00:54:43):
Oh, I got a good story-

B. Reynolds (00:54:45):
Don, we were talking about animal behavior which has become a, eh, I guess, one of our primary interests, er, later in life now that you've gone off the practice of actually looking after animals, it's- it's your, you're now researching, is that correct, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:54:58):
... Yes it is, I find it just enthralling.

B. Reynolds (00:55:01):
Yeah, and we were talking about some of the, uh, things that they're been doing with dogs, and you just told a st- you- you were telling me a story in between tapings a sniffer dog at an airport.

Donald McKeown (00:55:11):
Yeah, well, it, uh, stems from the fact that I was a consultant to the, to the, uh, airport guards, the, um, uh, the people who l- look for drugs and bombs and so on, and, uh, the, um, an occasion was that the, one of the sniffer dogs was on the conveyor, going over the baggage, as was their custom to find drugs or bombs, and guns, and, um, the, uh, dog came on a gym bag that had drugs in it, and these dogs get very excited. They get very hyper when they find-

B. Reynolds (00:55:48):
They- they get a treat do they then too?

Donald McKeown (00:55:49):
... oh, they get a treat, and they're conditioned-

B. Reynolds (00:55:51):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:55:51):
... to be highly motivated to find these drugs, and so when they find the drugs, the dog was really excited, and, um, er, then after that event, er, these- this dog, every time it was on a, on the conveyor and found a gym bag-

B. Reynolds (00:56:07):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:56:07):
... and there were no drugs in it, he would urinate on it.

B. Reynolds (00:56:10):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (00:56:11):
And we had an awful time trying to change the dog around not to urinate on everybody's gym bag.

B. Reynolds (00:56:16):
Because it all became one episode for him, did it-

Donald McKeown (00:56:18):
Yeah, that's right.

B. Reynolds (00:56:18):
... like finding a gym bag-

Donald McKeown (00:56:19):
Gym bags, so associated with-

B. Reynolds (00:56:20):
... gym bag, drugs, and then-

Donald McKeown (00:56:21):
... no drugs, I'm frustrated there are no drugs in this gym bag, and so the result to lower frustration dogs urinate on their frustration, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (00:56:29):
... it- it must've caused a- a bit of a problem with- with the people that owned the gym bags, (laughs)?

Donald McKeown (00:56:33):
(laughs), well it did, they did. It- it did, and, uh, it, because you couldn't... you had to condition the dog, or train the dog not to, not to urinate on these gym bags, um-

B. Reynolds (00:56:44):
And that's a, sorry-

Donald McKeown (00:56:45):
... and we had, go ahead, go ahead-

B. Reynolds (00:56:46):
... no I was just.

Donald McKeown (00:56:47):
... no it as difficult.

B. Reynolds (00:56:48):
(laughs), we're falling over each other. Now, I was just gonna say, "The dogs have also, they've gone beyond airports too, because they're working in customs then too," now they're not, they-

Donald McKeown (00:56:53):
That's true.

B. Reynolds (00:56:54):
... at border points, or what?

Donald McKeown (00:56:55):
That's right. This would be a customs dog.

B. Reynolds (00:56:56):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (00:56:57):
And, uh, they're Ger- German shepherds and Labs, and, uh, yeah they're, uh, remarkable. Uh, I was walking through... I just happened to be walking through the airport with one of the, um, handlers of customs, handlers and the dog, and, uh, the three of us, the dog, (laughs), and this handler walked by a fellow in a wheelchair, and the dog immediately pointed on the, they're trained to look at it and sit as soon as they smell drugs. Well, the dog, (laughs), pointed on this old feller in the wheelchair, and, uh, so, er, th- the- the as- the- the, um, handler asked him to stay there, and, uh, then the dog went by him again, and he pointed again.

Donald McKeown (00:57:41):
And so, he took this fellow in the wheelchair into a room, and searched him. He didn't have any drugs on him. The dog pointed on the wheelchair, and the drugs were lined in the rubber tire on the wheelchair. They're remarkable. They are really.

B. Reynolds (00:57:55):
It's actually amazing. How do they, how do they, eh, A, find dogs that'll do this, and B, how do they go about training them, I mean, this must be a real intensive process, is it not?

Donald McKeown (00:58:04):
Yes, they use artificial drugs to train them-

B. Reynolds (00:58:06):
Right.

Donald McKeown (00:58:06):
... and, uh, they use very modern training techniques, without discipline. It takes them about six months to train a dog, and they use all the science behind training, so they train very rapidly, and, uh, I have a company called Professional Animal Behavior Associates, which, uh, part of their mandate is to, um, to train trainers, er, the modern techniques of training, without discipline, and, um, we hold a conference in the University of Guelph, two or three days every spring, and we bring in, uh, knowledgeable trainers, and- and researchers, and scientists from around the world, and then we offer this course to the trainers in Ontario.

Donald McKeown (00:58:56):
And, uh, we have people not only in Ontario, but across Canada and Northern states come to this conference to learn how to train dogs efficiently. And of course-

B. Reynolds (00:59:06):
And this is to train dogs for practical purposes, so just the sniffing, I mean, yeah-

Donald McKeown (00:59:10):
... for practical purposes, uh, you know, dog- dog owner training and so on, so they could train efficiently. But, um, this information is easy for us to pass onto... we learn too of course, and-

B. Reynolds (00:59:22):
... Right, right.

Donald McKeown (00:59:23):
... we pass it onto the customs and the other police forces how to do that.

B. Reynolds (00:59:27):
Don- Don what is the history of all of this? Did it really start with the Seeing Eye dogs, is that, is that the start of it, or not?

Donald McKeown (00:59:33):
No, I think it goes w- a lot-

B. Reynolds (00:59:34):
Long before that.

Donald McKeown (00:59:35):
... further back than that, when they were training dogs to hunt or, um, and, um, but it- it's only blossomed in the last, um, er, last 30 years when all the principles of learning have been taken out of the laboratory, "How to train a rat to do this," or, "How not to train a rat," or whatever, uh, is brought and applied practically to the general public, and to dogs. And for centuries it was never done. It was all- all this valuable information of Pavlov and so on, they understood the principles, but it was never moved onto, and applied in it for the ge- benefit of the dogs, and the general public, and- and the service dogs.

B. Reynolds (01:00:19):
Right. Don, are dogs of a higher intelligence, if you will, than some other animals?

Donald McKeown (01:00:25):
I- I don't think so. Uh, I don't think you can go to that level. I think animals, for the most part, are reflectual. They, uh, have-

B. Reynolds (01:00:39):
So of, they're repetitious in a sense then too? It's-

Donald McKeown (01:00:40):
... Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:00:40):
... just that, er-

Donald McKeown (01:00:41):
They're like, uh, everything they do is a- a result of a reflex. There's a stimulus response, and in each animal, horses being one, or dogs, they have evolved genetically these special reflexes, and, er, eh, there is not much evidence of reasoning in their behavior. For example dogs, there might be in monkeys, and so on, I don't know about that field, but in horses and cattle, dogs and cats, er, the common animals we deal with, you could explain all of their behaviors, er, based on reflex, and, er, and being... we like to think that- that the dog or the cat is human, uh, and we like to give them human traits, anthropomorphism, uh, but, uh, and that's fine, and it helps the bond, but it doesn't help people who are dealing with problems.

Donald McKeown (01:01:37):
For example, the, you know, the dog that bites someone, you have to be able to say, "Now, why did the dog bite that person," and, "How do I prevent that, if I can," and, um, and you have to explain the behavior based on the reflex. And you can explain all- almost all based on, and whether, it can be a learned reflex as well, inherited and learned on top.

B. Reynolds (01:02:03):
Er, are animals emotional?

Donald McKeown (01:02:07):
You bet they are. You bet. Yeah, they have that capability-

B. Reynolds (01:02:11):
And dogs in particular, then too, I mean, you, they- they get to-

Donald McKeown (01:02:14):
... Yeah, they're emotional-

B. Reynolds (01:02:15):
... happy, sad periods, and this-

Donald McKeown (01:02:16):
... yeah, well yeah, or fearful periods, or, you know, there are all kinds of different emotions, sexual emotions, and-

B. Reynolds (01:02:23):
... the whole thing, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (01:02:23):
... the whole thing, (laughs), whole ball of wax, yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:02:26):
If you were a, uh, what advice would you give, because we're taping this, uh, program, so it will probably not air be- before the Christmas season, but, uh, this is the time of year when, uh, many families inherit the first pet. They adopt the first pet-

Donald McKeown (01:02:41):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

B. Reynolds (01:02:41):
... get the dog or what. What are the essentials in those first weeks of having a new animal, a puppy?

Donald McKeown (01:02:47):
Well, I think, uh, the most important thing people can do is- is learn how to train it. It comes with a whole bunch of, uh, baggage that is gen- inherited, and it's important to pick a puppy that is, er, adaptable to your environment, and because they become a member of the family.

B. Reynolds (01:03:08):
Of, you- you know, you said that, uh, uh, things inherited, uh, uh, and you're talking now about the parents, if you will, I'll say, use that term-

Donald McKeown (01:03:17):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:03:17):
... of the-

Donald McKeown (01:03:17):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (01:03:18):
... of that dog-

Donald McKeown (01:03:18):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:03:19):
... so is this something that people should be aware of, is saying, "Okay, what were the parents like?"

Donald McKeown (01:03:23):
Sure. And what were the parents of the parents like, and how much inbreeding and linebreeding-

B. Reynolds (01:03:28):
So they're no different from human beings in this sense?

Donald McKeown (01:03:31):
... no different than human beings, (laughs), at all.

B. Reynolds (01:03:31):
Right.

Donald McKeown (01:03:32):
But the- the dog is more tolerant to inbreeding than humans. If you inbreed humans, uh, i- in a couple of generations, you got a lot of problems, dogs are particularly stable to resist that, but they're about 80 percent of the dogs in the general public have some physical defect inherited, or behavioral, and, um, uh, it, uh, for example, the German Shepard's with hip dysplasia, uh-

B. Reynolds (01:04:00):
Collies have hip dysplasia too, having had one, it was, uh, yeah-

Donald McKeown (01:04:02):
... Yeah, they do, a lot of them. But, um, certainly inherited potential for hip dysplasia. The, um, but behavior is the biggest issue as far as compatibility with humans, and whether they're fearful, or whether they're aggressive, or are, uh, that is, and you have to go back several generations to... and people don't do that. They don't go back and examine-

B. Reynolds (01:04:28):
... I [crosstalk], it can be very difficult to do, wouldn't it, or not, as far as the-

Donald McKeown (01:04:30):
... well it-

B. Reynolds (01:04:30):
... as the, as the, uh, new purchaser of a dog, it's-

Donald McKeown (01:04:32):
... oh it's difficult-

B. Reynolds (01:04:33):
... yeah, yeah, yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:04:33):
... yeah, you'd have to call people who've had a dog for, uh, uh, for five or six years, and-

B. Reynolds (01:04:38):
Now have you traced those patterns over a period of thr-

Donald McKeown (01:04:40):
... oh absolutely.

B. Reynolds (01:04:41):
... three or four generations then, [crosstalk]?

Donald McKeown (01:04:42):
No, I'm not a lo- lot, I'm not-

B. Reynolds (01:04:43):
No, I mean-

Donald McKeown (01:04:43):
... me personally, but I have some,-

B. Reynolds (01:04:45):
... yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:04:45):
... and, uh, there's research done, and it's pretty obvious if you look at b- uh, behaviors such as the pit bull, pit bull, eh, is an inherited, eh, one type of aggression, and you don't see it in any other, that kind of aggression in any other... except maybe, um, occasionally in German Shepherds, and occasionally in Bullmastiffs and, but-

B. Reynolds (01:05:06):
Do- Doberman too, or not, or they're-

Donald McKeown (01:05:08):
... no Dobermans, uh, are, and they bred away from that, and they're, and, uh, all the time of treating animals for aggression, I only had one or two Dobermans of 1,000s.

B. Reynolds (01:05:19):
... Er, you just said they're- they're bred in a certain way. Dobermans are bred away from that, being, you mean then that pit bulls are bred towards being that?

Donald McKeown (01:05:28):
Yeah. And, er, all right, just, uh, I'll try to simplify it, because if you look at a dog when it bites, uh, for example, if you walk on the dog's territory, like you implied in the first program, that you had to be careful when you got out of the car-

B. Reynolds (01:05:43):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:05:44):
... that's territorial aggression.

B. Reynolds (01:05:46):
Right.

Donald McKeown (01:05:46):
Clearly, easily defined, an inherited characteristic. Some dogs are more territorial than others, and that, and pit bulls have a- another kind of aggression which is prey-catching, which means death. I don't go and pr- catch a prey and not kill it. So that's a specific entity type of aggression that's within the genes-

B. Reynolds (01:06:10):
[crosstalk].

Donald McKeown (01:06:10):
... and, uh, you can't, you cannot diagnose that in advance of- of a-

B. Reynolds (01:06:15):
Right

Donald McKeown (01:06:15):
... of a problem.

B. Reynolds (01:06:16):
Right. Should, were you in agreement with the pit bull situation that has existed and the-

Donald McKeown (01:06:22):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (01:06:22):
... banning, if you will, from many communities, of pit bulls, I guess, that's what happening, isn't it-

Donald McKeown (01:06:26):
Yes-

B. Reynolds (01:06:26):
... did I say that right, or not?

Donald McKeown (01:06:29):
... an- and- and it- it's a, it's a very complicated, but it's the only answer at the moment, and, er, until the breeders as- understand that the aggression is inherited, and that they're contributing to that, uh, and I do- and see the problem with, uh, you can't diagnose it, uh, until you have the right stimulus that s- triggers the kill.

B. Reynolds (01:06:53):
Well, it's not a fictitious dangerous as far as these dogs are concerned, now they're-

Donald McKeown (01:06:56):
Not at all.

B. Reynolds (01:06:56):
... no, the- the- it- it's a real thing-

Donald McKeown (01:06:58):
And the- that's right, and there're only a few dogs within that breed set that are dangerous-

B. Reynolds (01:07:02):
... Right.

Donald McKeown (01:07:03):
... and- and, uh, you know, you could say, "Well, if the dog kills the neighbor's cat, is that an indication that he's got a high prey-catching aggression," but it doesn't, um, it would be helpful if that was the case, but, uh, that dog may not kill children.

B. Reynolds (01:07:21):
Does the, when you think of this whole situation, we touched this very briefly a few seconds ago about- about, er, dogs being adopted, and coming into a family for the first time and training, um, eh, er, how does the, how does the owner get trained then? Is- is that important too, as well as training the dog? I mean, you, I mean, I hear it all the time with the fact, "Well we sent the dog to training school,"=

Donald McKeown (01:07:40):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (01:07:41):
... uh, that doesn't teach the owner how to behave once the dog comes back, does it, or not?

Donald McKeown (01:07:44):
No, what a, what a dog learns in one environment, it has to learn all over again in another, that's the key.

B. Reynolds (01:07:49):
So you gotta treat, you gotta teach the trainer to train, if you will then too?

Donald McKeown (01:07:52):
That's all they do, and that's all they should do, and they should tell owners, when they get back home they have to train it again, because what, as they say, what the dog learns in one environment, learns in another, and the other point-

B. Reynolds (01:08:03):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:08:03):
... to remember is that castration of dogs, and spaying of dogs, dogs does not reduce aggression, and it does in some species, like horses, it reduces aggression in horses maybe 80- 80 percent, and then, um, and in cattle, it reduces aggression. Everyone knows that, but when you move into dogs, and we always encourage people to castrate their animal, knowing that it didn't help the aggression, and we'd tell them so, but to make sure that that aggression wasn't passed on, and it wouldn't be if it was, so that was a, um, er, I think that's really important, because people sometimes get their animal castrated thinking that it'll reduce the aggression in dogs, now you have to look at species by themselves-

B. Reynolds (01:08:52):
So the neutering process is something that should happen to- to- to dogs, is what you're saying?

Donald McKeown (01:08:57):
... I think so.

B. Reynolds (01:08:57):
Or to ca- or to animals, period.

Donald McKeown (01:08:58):
Well, yes, it reduces the- the number of chance litters, er, extra dogs around-

B. Reynolds (01:09:03):
And that- that leads to something that's pretty atrocious in a way, because people that don't want a litter then are stuck with a little and what happens to that litter, I guess-

Donald McKeown (01:09:10):
... yeah, [crosstalk].

B. Reynolds (01:09:10):
... is that the bottom line of that, in a way?

Donald McKeown (01:09:11):
Exactly.

B. Reynolds (01:09:11):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:09:12):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:09:12):
So then you're- you're really resolving it, being cruel to these animals-

Donald McKeown (01:09:15):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (01:09:16):
... before it's all over.

Donald McKeown (01:09:16):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (01:09:17):
Don, who is the hardest, who are the hardest to deal with, the patient when it comes to animals, or the owner?

Donald McKeown (01:09:23):
Owner.

B. Reynolds (01:09:25):
(laughs), by far?

Donald McKeown (01:09:25):
Yeah, by far-

B. Reynolds (01:09:26):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (01:09:27):
... yeah, (laughs), because I, you know, I- I really believe that, you know, a lot of people go into veterinary medicine thinking they're dealing with animals, and they are, but they're primarily dealing with people first, because if you can't get the person onside to initiate the treatment, or do the... and our biggest failure in dealing with animal behavior is that the owner won't do what we ask them to do.

B. Reynolds (01:09:51):
You must have met some rather obsessed owners in your career, have you?

Donald McKeown (01:09:59):
Yes, yes, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (01:09:59):
Can you think of some champions in this field?

Donald McKeown (01:09:59):
Had a lady call me one day and said, "My cat won't eat unless I give it asparagus juice first."

B. Reynolds (01:10:05):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (01:10:07):
And she said, "I've been eating asparagus for five years, and I'm sick of asparagus, can you help me?" But what she had done of course, was train the cat, and she gave it so much... being a nice lady, a nice owner, and c- gave it some asparagus-

B. Reynolds (01:10:21):
That can be expensive, this, sometimes of the year too-

Donald McKeown (01:10:23):
... (laughs).

B. Reynolds (01:10:24):
... this is not a cheap diet, is it?

Donald McKeown (01:10:25):
So there's a good example. Yeah. Yeah, I had to a- she was pretty tired of asparagus. And, you know, a very common problem was that dogs have a very significant, um, mental clock, and they can tell within... you can train a dog to drool within three minutes in 24 hours, if you just feed it on 12 o'clock, so their- their internal clock is very accurate, and, um, er, we would have a behavioral problem with someone, the dog would have to go outside in the middle of the night at three o'clock say, and the peo- the owner would get up and- and let the dog out, and in the process would be playing with the dog, and touching the dog, and interacting with the dog.

Donald McKeown (01:11:07):
The next night the dog may or may not have to go out, but it wakes up at three o'clock. The owner gets up, thinks it has to go out, it's conditioning the dog to wake-up at three o'clock every morning, and we, I- I had one case, (laughs), that they had this- these three sisters had a basset, and they said, er, uh, "The dog has to go outside every three hours all night long, so what we do now is, er, we take shifts, she, eh, Joan sleeps between-

B. Reynolds (01:11:36):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (01:11:36):
... this and sis sleeps,"-

B. Reynolds (01:11:36):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (01:11:38):
... and they had conditioned the dog that-

B. Reynolds (01:11:39):
This dog wasn't a puppy at this point then, because the dog was, (laughs), no?

Donald McKeown (01:11:41):
... no, no, no, no, no, no-

B. Reynolds (01:11:43):
This is not like a child where they-

Donald McKeown (01:11:44):
... no.

B. Reynolds (01:11:44):
... take turns at night, this has-

Donald McKeown (01:11:45):
No, so that's condition-

B. Reynolds (01:11:46):
... been going on for a couple of years."

Donald McKeown (01:11:47):
... conditioning unwanted behavior, being nice owners, you know, they're thoughtful.

B. Reynolds (01:11:51):
And for the most part, I think owners are, aren't they, or not?

Donald McKeown (01:11:53):
Oh they are, yeah, certainly.

B. Reynolds (01:11:54):
Yeah, by far.

Donald McKeown (01:11:55):
By far. The- the- the animal can be s- uh, you know, it's, there was a piece of research done at, uh, one time that there are more people need, uh, c- um, uh, support after the death of their dog than their spouse, and that's pretty s- that's a pretty serious, uh, comment on, um, yeah, I guess, er, your relationship with your spouse, or the- the s- the intense relationship between owners and pets.

B. Reynolds (01:12:27):
In your, in your lifetime, have you seen very bad, or very severe cruelty to animals too, that you just, mu- it must've made you very sad at times to see some things that have happened?

Donald McKeown (01:12:37):
Yes. Yes, I- I would say that, "Yes, I have." Uh, the biggest cruelty in my mind, the second biggest cruelty in my mind is people trying to train dogs with discipline, train horses with discipline. It is totally inappropriate, and it, and discipline never works, unless it's an accident. In, and we're a discipline-directed society, and that to me is cruel. Choker chains that they put around dogs necks and [crosstalk]-

B. Reynolds (01:13:07):
So you have a new collar thing, haven't you-

Donald McKeown (01:13:08):
... yeah, we have, head collars are- are- are, uh, not, they, you can't induce discomfort or pain, or discipline with the head collar, and there are several head collars on the market. And I think that the most severe thing that bothers me the most, in my career, and cruelty, is the inbreeding of dogs, and animals, because they're- they're bred with a defect. The numbers of, uh, and these animals suffer through life with their defect, and you mentioned hip dysplasia, uh, that's only one of, eh, piles of them, and-

B. Reynolds (01:13:44):
... Colitis was another one I know with our collie that was-

Donald McKeown (01:13:46):
... Yes.

B. Reynolds (01:13:46):
... common to that breed, I think, is that right too?

Donald McKeown (01:13:47):
Yes it is.

B. Reynolds (01:13:48):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:13:49):
Yes it is.

B. Reynolds (01:13:49):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:13:49):
And, there are 100s of diseases that are transmitted through genetics, and that is from inbreeding and linebreeding, and- and, uh, the Cana- Canadian Kennel Club, when you think about it, is designed to reward people who have the same- same physical characteristics, uh, and they may want a big dog with long hair and things that have no value in- in function, but, uh, in order to get that form, hair length, color, they have to inbreed mother to daughter, er, and son to daughter, and so on-

B. Reynolds (01:14:26):
Right.

Donald McKeown (01:14:26):
... in order to perpetuate that, and the Canadian Kennel Club promotes that, and then therefore is promoting terrible cruelty within the animal species, and it's my prediction that in, um, 50 years there won't be a dog industry, because of, um, of inbreeding and linebreeding and physical defects.

B. Reynolds (01:14:48):
So then, I guess, what you're saying too, at the same point, one of the other sad thing that's happening are these dog factories that are built-up, or s- and should be just-

Donald McKeown (01:14:54):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:14:55):
... wiped out, should they, or not, yeah?

Donald McKeown (01:14:56):
They should be, but they're- they're, that's right, they should be.

B. Reynolds (01:14:59):
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, er, lets, uh, let's talk a minute, for a minute or so about your, uh, community and your relationships, your, uh, some of your hobbies, uh, there's at least, uh, a couple of grandchildren running around, aren't there now?

Donald McKeown (01:15:14):
Yes, there are 10.

B. Reynolds (01:15:15):
10 of them?

Donald McKeown (01:15:15):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

B. Reynolds (01:15:16):
No great-grandchildren yet?

Donald McKeown (01:15:17):
No.

B. Reynolds (01:15:18):
No, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (01:15:18):
No, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (01:15:19):
Getting close, or-

Donald McKeown (01:15:19):
Getting close.

B. Reynolds (01:15:21):
... not, yeah?

Donald McKeown (01:15:21):
Yeah, they, yeah, but that's all right, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (01:15:21):
Yeah, (laughs). This is all part of it, isn't it?

Donald McKeown (01:15:24):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:15:24):
I wanna go back for one minute too, because a thought occurred to me just as we were talking before, is that, you know, eh, is one of the secrets that- that we shouldn't be treating animals, and dogs, I guess, in particular where it- it would strike me that they're no different than human beings, are they, in a sense?

Donald McKeown (01:15:37):
No.

B. Reynolds (01:15:37):
And the way you e- relate to them, if you're-

Donald McKeown (01:15:39):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (01:15:39):
... when you talked about some of those things that shouldn't be done, this is, you shouldn't be doing these things to human beings either, should we?

Donald McKeown (01:15:45):
No, we shouldn't.

B. Reynolds (01:15:45):
Our children.

Donald McKeown (01:15:46):
No, we shouldn't.

B. Reynolds (01:15:47):
Yeah. So it's the same-

Donald McKeown (01:15:48):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:15:48):
... is that, is that good advice then, that- that think of a dog a being a human being?

Donald McKeown (01:15:52):
Yes, uh, they should think of it that way, and- and, um, and you get far more with honey than you do with, er, [crosstalk]-

B. Reynolds (01:16:01):
[crosstalk].

Donald McKeown (01:16:01):
... it's important yeah, that's right.

B. Reynolds (01:16:02):
Yeah. Have we gone overboard with- with our, uh, showering of, uh, things on pets? Uh, and I didn't express that very well, I think you know what I'm getting at though?

Donald McKeown (01:16:12):
No, I think I do.

B. Reynolds (01:16:12):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:16:13):
Um, I- I, uh-

B. Reynolds (01:16:14):
Because they have become almost more than a member of the family, these treasures-

Donald McKeown (01:16:18):
... they have.

B. Reynolds (01:16:18):
... that they're now wearing-

Donald McKeown (01:16:19):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (01:16:19):
... diamonds and all this stuff.

Donald McKeown (01:16:20):
And, uh, I think, it's sad when, uh, more emphasis is placed on a pet within a family situation, than members of the family. And, uh, people often place a lot more trust in a pet, because it's kind of reliable feedback, and people are not necessarily reliable feedbacks, but, uh-

B. Reynolds (01:16:41):
Well, you don't get too many arguments with pets-

Donald McKeown (01:16:42):
... No, (laughs)-

B. Reynolds (01:16:43):
... do you?

Donald McKeown (01:16:44):
... no, that's right.

B. Reynolds (01:16:44):
(laughs).

Donald McKeown (01:16:45):
That's right, and they like you no matter whether your breath smells or not.

B. Reynolds (01:16:47):
Yeah, (laughs).

Donald McKeown (01:16:47):
But the, um, it can go overboard, and a- at the expense of relationships with people, and I think that's sad.

B. Reynolds (01:16:55):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:16:55):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:16:55):
Anyway, sorry, we got off, I went back to the, to animals again, but let's talk about community. You've been a member of the Rotary for a while. Your past, present of the Rotary here in-

Donald McKeown (01:17:02):
I am.

B. Reynolds (01:17:03):
... [crosstalk], fo- the Fergus-Elora, or Elora-Fergus?

Donald McKeown (01:17:05):
Fergus-Elora.

B. Reynolds (01:17:06):
Fergus-Elora-

Donald McKeown (01:17:06):
(laughs), yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:17:06):
... Rotary.

Donald McKeown (01:17:06):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:17:08):
Yeah, again, (laughs), you have to be very careful of the Elora-Fergus, Fergus-Elora-

Donald McKeown (01:17:10):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:17:11):
... deals. Uh, you're still attending Rotary?

Donald McKeown (01:17:13):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (01:17:13):
Yeah?

Donald McKeown (01:17:14):
Yes. And, um, enjoy it a lot.

B. Reynolds (01:17:16):
Right.

Donald McKeown (01:17:17):
And, um, have, um, been involved in, uh, PROBUS, because PROBUS was, is an offshoot of Ro- of Rotary-

B. Reynolds (01:17:24):
It's a seniors' division, isn't it of, is that right or not?

Donald McKeown (01:17:27):
... It's, well, it's, I don't think that's quite a good-

B. Reynolds (01:17:29):
No, okay.

Donald McKeown (01:17:30):
... uh, what it is is a, the Rotary is a catalyst to get it going, and then it backs out, and one of the, uh, er, it happened in my tenure as president, but Martin Dabner was the key drive to put PROBUS together, and, uh, I just was a- a helper, but, uh, it's a good organization, and it's for anybody. It's just not PROBUS's professional business, but it's for anybody who wants to have a social time, and I think it's a great, um, and it's, and it's really not, uh, it's not influenced by Rotary at all. It's an independent non-charitable group that is social and educational.

B. Reynolds (01:18:12):
Right, you also then were Co-Chair of the initial phases, if you will, er, of the Groves Memorial Hospital drive for funding?

Donald McKeown (01:18:22):
Yes.

B. Reynolds (01:18:23):
It must've been an interesting experience?

Donald McKeown (01:18:24):
That was a fabulous experience. And, uh-

B. Reynolds (01:18:26):
It certainly showed the personality of this community, didn't it?

Donald McKeown (01:18:29):
... Oh, it did. It did, and everybody- everybody was so generous, and, um, they, it was a, as a, it was an easy sell, it was a lot of work, but it was an easy sell, because we have a magnificent, um, hospital. It's really a cornerstone of our community-

B. Reynolds (01:18:49):
It's a, it's a treasure. It's a-

Donald McKeown (01:18:50):
... Yes.

B. Reynolds (01:18:50):
... the- the Grand River roadside, your home is one of the treasures, and Grove's is one of the treasures too?

Donald McKeown (01:18:54):
Isn't that the truth, yeah?

B. Reynolds (01:18:55):
Yes.

Donald McKeown (01:18:55):
And so, and we had a, we had a great crew, wonderful, uh, group of people dedicated raising money, and to raise 15 million dollars in a space of three years, incredible for a community of this size.

B. Reynolds (01:19:08):
This size, absolutely.

Donald McKeown (01:19:09):
Yeah, and very few people turned it, turned you down, and I had an experience where, I won't mention the business in town, I went in and said, "We need to raise, we need, we- we need to raise this money," and they said, "Well, how much sh- should you think we should give?" And, uh, the- the came back with maybe f- 15,000 over five years. They said, "We're not gonna do that, we're gonna give you 25."

B. Reynolds (01:19:38):
Well, I think, that see, it's a service, and it's the people, you know, whenever I think of Groves, I think that it's the community of people that work there that are absolutely amazing.

Donald McKeown (01:19:47):
Oh yeah, it's great.

B. Reynolds (01:19:47):
It's unique in this province, in my mind, in the sense. They're- they're-

Donald McKeown (01:19:49):
Oh it is, with- without a doubt.

B. Reynolds (01:19:51):
... and I don't know whether that comes even from- from, uh, you know, the traditions that old Dr. Groves established, I think, some of that's probably, it's- it's seeped down, because it's genetic again-

Donald McKeown (01:19:58):
Well yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:19:58):
... it's gone all the way down through these-

Donald McKeown (01:20:00):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:20:00):
... through these years-

Donald McKeown (01:20:01):
But-

B. Reynolds (01:20:01):
... because it's- it's got a personality of its own, hasn't it?

Donald McKeown (01:20:03):
... It does.

B. Reynolds (01:20:03):
Yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:20:04):
And, uh, and I think it has a personality that, uh, because a lot of people know each other, it's the community is just big enough-

B. Reynolds (01:20:12):
Oh yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:20:13):
... that it, er, when you walk-in, you- you know people that are working in there, and it- it is like family.

B. Reynolds (01:20:19):
Well, we have to worry about what's gonna happen at, down the road, and let's not get into that-

Donald McKeown (01:20:22):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (01:20:22):
... or we'll have another two or three hour discussion-

Donald McKeown (01:20:24):
I see, yeah, (laughs).

B. Reynolds (01:20:24):
... right now.

Donald McKeown (01:20:25):
Oh, yeah, I know we're both thinking is in that.

B. Reynolds (01:20:25):
You know, you did, this, just briefly because we only have a minute and half left, or so, is that you're- you're a believer now first of all in the foundation for the hospital being found- founded, or started, but you're also, you mentioned before, in your before shows, we were talking about a community foundation, or something of that nature, right?

Donald McKeown (01:20:42):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:20:42):
Express your views on that, I thought it was very interesting?

Donald McKeown (01:20:44):
Yea- yeah, well it would be nice if we had such a thing, and I don't know, uh, it's, um-

B. Reynolds (01:20:48):
Which would be a fact that all the needs are looked after through one foundation.

Donald McKeown (01:20:52):
... foundation, but that wouldn't necessarily interfere with the hospital foundation-

B. Reynolds (01:20:56):
No.

Donald McKeown (01:20:56):
... but it would be a v- a vehicle for, um, for, uh, people and all groups to give through, and get tax deductions, and organize and have direction, and stimulate, uh, more giving-

B. Reynolds (01:21:10):
Right.

Donald McKeown (01:21:11):
... within the community.

B. Reynolds (01:21:11):
Yeah, and foundation exists to be, I think I've got it right, correct- correct me if I'm wrong about that, er, foundations also give you an opportunity in this area of- of needing funds to- to invest for the future, if you will, they can precollect funds-

Donald McKeown (01:21:24):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (01:21:24):
... and not have to spend them immediately, so that fund-

Donald McKeown (01:21:26):
That's right.

B. Reynolds (01:21:27):
.. can be built and built, and built over-

Donald McKeown (01:21:28):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:21:28):
... a period of time.

Donald McKeown (01:21:28):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:21:29):
And many communities across this country have them now, don't they?

Donald McKeown (01:21:32):
Yes, they do.

B. Reynolds (01:21:32):
Yeah, yeah.

Donald McKeown (01:21:33):
Yep.

B. Reynolds (01:21:33):
Well Don, it's been very interesting. Uh-

Donald McKeown (01:21:36):
Well, I've enjoyed it, thank you.

B. Reynolds (01:21:37):
... and I've enjoyed it too. It's been great seeing you. Uh, I- I'm sorry we didn't get time to cover a lot of the ground we should've. Uh, we should've talked about the awards, the traveling you've done in connection with your profession, and all those other things, but, uh, but you get as far as like-

Donald McKeown (01:21:50):
(laughs).

B. Reynolds (01:21:50):
... the kinda thing is concerned. But, uh, thank you again so much for having us in your home, and then-

Donald McKeown (01:21:55):
Yeah.

B. Reynolds (01:21:55):
... having this conversation.

Donald McKeown (01:21:56):
It's been an honor, thank you.

B. Reynolds (01:21:57):
Okay, thank you.

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