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Jacob (Jack) Pos

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Graduation Year

1950

College

OAC

Interview Date

Interviewer

E. Brubaker

Call Number

RE1 UOG A1340119

Audio

Jacob (Jack) Pos interview

Transcript

Ed Brubaker (00:00:05):
This is an interview with Professor Jack Pos, who spent many years at the University of Guelph, uh, and it's being held on September 9th, 1999, in Guelph. Uh, conducted by Ed Brubaker from the Oral History Committee of the Alumni in Action, uh, Committee of the Alumni Association. Uh, Jack, uh, I've always known you as Jack Pos, I understand you were, uh, baptized as Jacob Pos. Can you tell us where you were born and, uh, what brought you to Canada here and what you did in your early years here in Canada?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:00:55):
Be happy to. My mother, uh, always called me Jeckie. And, uh, when we came to Canada in 1924, she was looking for an anglicized, uh, Canadian name for me. And the closest she could come to was, uh, Jack, or the abbreviation or the nickname in that time was Jackie, which was close to Jeckie, as far as Dutch was concerned. So, from that point on, the family has always called me Jack, even though I was baptized as Jacob. The other two brothers that came after me were also given biblical names, uh, Peter and, uh, John. But when my sister came along, uh, was time for me to suggest to the, my parents that, uh, "If we're going to live in Canada and adopt Canadian ways, perhaps we should use, uh, Canadian names. So I would suggest that, uh, we call our, our newest member of the family, Evelyn," which I thought was a good Canadian name.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:02:06):
And my parents agreed. And so Evelyn, it was. About, uh, five or six years afterwards. Evelyn decided that she didn't like Evelyn. And she approached the parents one day and she said, "Mom, I've just flushed Evelyn down the toilet. I wanna be Peggy." And to this day, all of my brothers and sisters and my parents called her Peggy, except me. She is still Evelyn as far as I was concerned because I gave her that name and she's never legally changed it. When we came to Canada, we were actually put in prison when we got off the ship because my father, uh, was a professional man, an architect, actually, he had spent, uh, a couple of years in Canada before the first world war, working for an architectural firm in Toronto. He was, uh, what's referred to as the resident architect, he would have his office on the job site.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:03:19):
Uh, and many collegiate colleges, uh, were built in Toronto under his supervision. But when the first world war broke out, uh, Holland, uh, even though it was neutral, still called back her, uh, Patriots that had served their compulsory two year military training, which my father had done. So after the first world war, he decided to bring his family, uh, to Canada, having married in the meantime. And my birth came along on the 21st, uh, year, the 21st year in this new century, uh, on the 4th of April in the little village of Omersport. My mother before her marriage, uh, was a sister in a convent and she taught crafts. She was very good at embroidery work. She still did it to her dying day. My father was the ninth of the family of, uh, boys and girls. I believe there were five boys and four girls. His brothers, his father, his grandfather were all masons, bricklayers, building, uh, these beautiful villas and the boulders of the reclaimed [inaudible]. That is a Villa is, starts off with being a house at the front end and the barn at the back end.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:05:02):
And the girls that did the house cleaning had to scrub floors from the house right out the back door through the barn. This is why Dutch homes and barns are usually very clean. They're noted for their cleanliness. When, uh, we came to Canada, however, we were not welcomed as immigrants, certainly not to allow dad to continue to practice his profession. He had to, uh, declare that he would not resume his profession, but would take up, uh, farming. Our farming experience was very brief and limited. My mother's brother had come to Canada before us, and he was working in the coal mines in Alberta. So we journeyed from Montreal to, uh, Coleman Alberta, where my father got a job working in coal mine. Of course, he's not a miner, certainly not a coal miner. But of course, he was skilled in cabinet making and woodworking. He was a black sheep of the family, even though all his brothers and his, uh, father and grandfather were brick layers. Uh, he had an affinity for wood. There was very little wood in homes in those days because they were solid brick construction and doors and windows and flooring. It was about the only woodwork in the house, but that was father's specialty.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:06:44):
And so when he arrived at the coal mine, he was asked to, uh, maintain the pulleys, the wooden pulleys on the tracks for the little carts that brought up the ore from, and the, and the, uh, rough coal from the lower depths. It was a very demanding task and he worked very hard and diligently, but once, uh, his skill in maintaining the pulley and rope system to maintain the carriages, uh, was properly in place. It became a caretaker's job from that point on, and it was a little easier for him. Unfortunately for the family, this was probably one of the worst winters, 1925 in Alberta, that many families suffered, in the town of Coleman, which is very close to the Crowsnest pass, only saw a doctor about once every month or two.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:07:51):
And so children that succumbed to pneumonia usually didn't survive. This happened to my younger sister who was overcome with pneumonia and passed away that winter. The doctor advised, uh, my parents that, that they didn't want the same thing to happen to me that perhaps we should move eastward. This resulted in our family moving to Ontario. We first lived in Oshawa, Ontario. Father by now had resumed his trade of, uh, general contracting. Uh, he still never practiced (laughs) farming, but he worked, uh, for a construction crew and then became his own boss, uh, eventually. This little property that we had in Oshawa, he had intended to build a house on it, but he first built a two car garage, and we lived in the two car garage. I can still see my mother sitting in a very comfortable chair in one corner of what we had set aside as our little living room, with a reading lamp, uh, over her right shoulder and myself and two younger brothers, uh, kneeling in front of her, on the floor.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:09:23):
As she, uh, read from us, uh, from the Bible, is, of course, she being a sister, very religious, and we always had, uh, some religion in our home. I know father insisted that in every meal we read, uh, several verses of the Bible and have a prayer before we commence, uh, our meals. And mother had a lovely voice. She also had a book with hymns in it, and that's where we sang beautiful hymns. Father had a wonderful voice too. In fact, when he was a young man, before he went to trade school or a type of technical school, he played in the band. It was not uncommon for him to, uh, join in with some of his fellow bandsmen to go from one village to another village, marching along the road, playing band music. The one caution that he had to observe, however, [inaudible] his father didn't mind his son playing in the band, but he had to be on the job at seven o'clock the next morning, irrespective of how late he was out the night before.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:10:42):
Father was always musical. Even when we moved from Oshawa to Windsor, Ontario. You can imagine, a Dutchman playing in the Essex Scottish band, wearing kilts. (laughs) Dad thought I should be a musician too. He started me off on the trumpet, but after many flat notes on the trumpet, he decided I was not a musician. And that's where my music career ended. Although I still loved to sing in the choir, which I do quite often. When we moved to Windsor, father became, uh, very expert in residential construction. He would have fairly large working crews working for him. And that started a career for him of importing immigrants to Canada. He would sponsor a person from the Netherlands, we'll say. And in fact, I can remember two specific young men that came. They were brothers, the John Verhooven and Tony Verhooven, boys, uh, came to work for dad. Dad was building a series of 18 houses on a court.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:11:57):
Uh, Argyle Court came off Argyle Street in what we used to call Walkerville, Ontario. This was before greater Windsor was planned, and we lived in Walkerville. One of the homes that they've built on that court was on the corner of, uh, Argyle Street at Argyle Court, and it became our home eventually when it was finished, but that's where the immigrants came to work for dad, on the construction site. Those homes were all solid brick construction, no wood framing, other than the floor and the doors, windows and so forth. Carrying on from there. Uh, many men came, uh, to Canada through father's sponsor ship, even as late, uh, as about 19, 1953, the proper date for that... He brought a young man out who had, uh, been born and raised in Indonesia. This of course was one of the Dutch possessions, but when Indonesia received their independence and the colonials had to go back to their home country. So this man's, uh, father came back to Holland with his son and his family, but, uh, Holland was overpopulated as it always has been. And there was no work for him.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:13:27):
Uh, so he wrote a letter to someone in Canada. I presume that he must have lifted a c-, a map of Ontario and threw a dart at it, and it happened to hit Guelph. So, he addressed a letter to the masons in Guelph, Ontario. Uh, that letter came to a lodge in Guelph, Ontario. And there was a member in that lodge who was in charge of the woodworking shop at the University of Guelph, by the name of Joseph Gulliver. I had introduced my father to Mr. Gulliver when I started the university here in 45, so that, uh, Mr. Gulliver knew that my father was a mason. And he also knew that my father had brought immigrants to Canada. So when this letter arrived in his lodge, he said to his, as lodge brothers, "I know someone who can help us with this."

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:14:23):
And so my father, again, brought someone to Canada. Unfortunately, my father passed away a few months after that. And at that time being the oldest son in the family, it became my responsibility to look after this immigrant. Now, the fact that the boy had served a couple of years in, in the diploma course in agriculture, in Wageningen, allowed me to, uh, enroll him at the University of Guelph then standing agricultural program. John Darmar graduated, uh, from the, uh, agricultural college in Guelph. He won a scholarship. He stayed on to do a master's degree and then, uh, went to Edmonton, Alberta, and completed a PhD and is on the staff at the soil science department at the University of, uh, Lethbridge.

Ed Brubaker (00:15:28):
And Jack, uh, he obviously has done very well in Canada as an immigrant and as a good example. But you didn't stay in Windsor, you eventually went to Simcoe and, uh, Simcoe area. And what did you do there? And I think from there, you went into the air force.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:15:48):
Before we went to Simcoe, we, uh, went to Tilbury. I, uh, we were com- just coming out of the depression in 1936. Dad had gotten a couple of jobs. Uh, and I had, had assisted him. I had graduated from public school at that time. My father asked me, he said, "Jack, what would you like to do in life?" And of course, like any son who has been brought up, uh, in a male dominated family, you tend to follow your father's footsteps. And so I replied that, that, I would like to carry on with what he was doing and I fancied cabinet making at the time.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:16:36):
So he decided that, "Well, you have two choices. You can either go to a trade school and, uh, pick up the trade there, or, or you can apprentice under me." Well, being the oldest of, uh, a family of six, that is the oldest boy, uh, in, uh, family of, uh, six children that, uh, we needed the income. This was depression years. We were on welfare. We were just getting our feet under ourselves, trying to get a job here and there. So I, I knew that my answer should have been to apprentice to my father, uh, which I did. And so the one job that he worked at, at the time was, uh, he was working for the Ford motor company in Windsor, Ford motors, uh, haven't always built cars or trucks. They were building it in the early, uh, thirties, uh, trailers, house trailers and the trailer, the particular design that Ford had come up with that time had curved inside paneling.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:17:49):
And father was rather expert at cabinet work in lining these trailers. And so they established a new plant from the town of Tilbury and moved, uh, father and the family to Tilbury. It wasn't, uh, a very long career. The next year, uh, he was outta work, and the trailer business didn't go very well with Ford. And so the two immigrants that he first brought to Canada, John and Tony Verhooven. And after they left my father, gone to Norfolk County and started in the tobacco industry and they, uh, asked my father for some help to bill new tobacco kilns for them. And so in 37, we, uh, ended up in Norfolk county, my father and I, uh, the family remained back in Tilbury, and we built tobacco kilns that, uh, followed from both Tony and John Verhooven. We returned to Tilbury. And the next year we brought the entire family back to Norfolk County, uh, and started a whole new career, uh, there at that time.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:19:04):
I had never had the opportunity to go to high school. And so I stayed with my father in the construction business. When I was 18 years old, uh, I was a shy person and not easy to make friends with, but I did have my eye on a, a young lady that, uh, was still going to high school. And I always made it a point to somehow or another, uh, be going to the town of Simcoe from our home between October and September, at a time when she would be going to school so that I could pick her up and give her her ride. Got to know her pretty well. And, uh, from that point on, uh, we became a little rather close. We became friends, very good friends. And our weekend excursions would be to take in a movie on Saturday night. And this was fairly regular.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:20:06):
My wages, when I worked for my father, which, uh, very small, I received $1 a week. We worked from, from seven o'clock in the morning, till six in the evening. And we worked on Saturdays. Uh, so this was very demanding of time. But that Saturday evening I took my girlfriend to town. I had one whole dollar, which took us to a movie, took us to the drugstore for sodas, and I still had 15 cents left and change. Now, my father always insisted that I accompanied the family to church. My girlfriend went to a country church. It was served by the same minister that we had in town. So my father said, "It's all right. You can go to your girlfriend's church, but you have to go to the family church first." So in the morning I went to our church, in the afternoon I went to the country church.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:21:03):
So my dime went to the town church and my nickel went to the country church. It was on one of the weekend excursions that I had the use of the car. And I took, had taken my girl into town and I had an accident and I ran into an old 28 Essex. And the driver of the other car must have had someone that shouldn't have been in the car with him because she slipped away before I could get a policeman to come and attend direct. The policeman assisted me getting the front fender off the tire so that I could drive the car home, but in the drive from town to where we lived in the country, which would be about six miles. I had worn a bit of the rubber off the tire because that must have been from the accident. The entire accident cost my father $25 to straighten out the front axle to get another tire, not a new one, but a another one with a boot in it, and to bump out the fender.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:22:10):
And every time we had a little argument, we were a very argumentative family, the accident would come into the picture. And so one day when the accident came into the picture, I told my father where to shove it all. I went home that afternoon. I left the job, walked all the way home, got a few clothes and left home. I'm sorry to say that I've never been home since that day, uh, to stay overnight. I immediately left the front entrance with my mother standing on the doorstep, begging me to stay till father came home that night. But I took off. I walked and walked and walked till I saw the other cars on the road. It must have been a farm auction sale. So I walked into the sale of yards. I let it be known to a few people that I was looking for a job.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:23:08):
And this man came up to me afterwards, said, "Jack, I understand you're looking for a job?" I said, "Yes, sir." He says, "I could use a hired man, $20 a month in your board." I said, "That's fine." And I rode with him from the auction sale to his place that night. And I started to work for him the next day. That went along very well for some time until I had an argument with him. Now you got the picture, the situation here. This man that hired me was my girlfriend's father. He didn't need a hired man. I, I knew, but he knew there was something wrong because he knew my family. And so he stepped in to save the day I, I presume. He never farmed with machinery, he always had horses. I love horses and I loved driving those horses. I can still see myself walking barefoot in the sandy soil, single for a plow with the horse rings around my back, really enjoying the work.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:24:28):
But one day, uh, one of the horses died. This was a team of horses that my father-in-law had raised from Colts. They were 26 and 27 years of age. The one that died, I had to bury up in the pasture. The other one, uh, eventually got down in the stable and couldn't get up and had to be put away. My father-in-law was unable to do it. And he instructed me how to do away with this horse. I had dug the hole for the horse. We led the horse out beside the hole, blindfolded. He handed me an ax, the blunt end I was supposed to hit the star or the blaze on the forehead of his horse. He said, "Take careful aim, swing very hard so that he's, uh, killed instantly, and then we'll bury him." But he walked away because he couldn't be there for the charge to be done. Well, I took a aim the blaze. I took several aims at the blaze. I swung with all my might to make certain that this horse would be dead when I hit him.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:25:49):
I heard the bones crush, but the horse didn't fall down. Rigor mortis must have set in instantly because he was there like a wooden horse. Four legs stiff as a board. And I had to literally knock the legs out from the o- one side to make him fall through the hole. I couldn't sleep that night. I slept in the farmhouse. I got up and I lit the lantern, and I had to walk all the way out to the grave to make sure that that horse was dead. The next time, of course my father replaced the horses with a couple of Percherons. He had one of his own, uh, 'cause he had three horses, and this was a mate to the one that he had. The one that he had was lazy. The one that he bought was very high spirited. He instructed me how to drive horses properly, so that the double [inaudible] would remain balanced. So that both horses worked equally well. I got a little bit exasperated with this one horse. I said to myself, "well, if you wanna pull this sort of double disks all by yourself and let the other horse just walk along and do no work. Go ahead."

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:27:08):
Unbeknownst to me, my boss had decided to prune some apple trees and he was up in the trees looking back where I was working. And when he saw this unmatched, uh, team approaching him, uh, he was waiting for me at the end of the row and explaining to me, "This is not the way I taught you to drive horses." Well, the argument got a little bit too frustrated and I got so mad that I finally quit. I said, "You can look for another hired man." Going back to the house, got my clothes, walked out to the whole highway, which was about a half a mile long from this lane. And the first car that came along was the mailman who stuffed some letters in the box. And I asked him if I could have a ride with him. And he said, "Uh, sure, jump in."

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:27:59):
In the course of our conversation, he realized I was looking for a job, and so he hired me. This mailman was the First World War veteran. He'd lost a leg in the First World War, and he operated a farm. This farm was a fruit and vegetable farm. He had lots of bees. He grew tobacco and he had an orchard. So it was a real mixed farm. So I kept, always kept pretty busy there for a couple of months. And then I heard some strange stories from this man from the First World War, how he lost his leg, how he had to go to Toronto once a year, Christie Street Hospital to have his leg attend to and his prosthesis repaired, uh, for another year's, uh, wor- laboring. I rather enjoyed working for this man too. I don't think I've ever worked anywhere that I did not enjoy my work.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:28:59):
It may have been difficult now and then causing me to, to get, uh, angry at people. But even in this case, with all of the work that we had to do, I can picture myself pulling, uh, Brussels sprouts out of the snow banks because this man was also a market gardener. He had a stand at the stall in the town of Simcoe. And I would get his loads ready for him. In delivering the mail, the rural mail, with a wooden leg, he had some difficulties getting around. So he stayed on the highways and I often would drive the team of horses and dog sleds and deliver mail in the countryside where the cars didn't get. This was all new experience for me, but work that I enjoyed doing until the war came along, the Second World War. And from the war stories I had heard from this First World War veteran is courageous struggle after the war to make a living for himself in Canada. I just felt obligated that I had to volunteer my services.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:30:13):
Though, as a result, my girlfriend and I motored to Hamilton and I joined the Royal Canadian Air Force. I wanted to be an aircraft carpenter. The recruiting officer said, "There is no such trade as an aircraft carpenter, and there's no openings for air crewmen. But we do have openings for general duties." I asked him what general duties meant. And he said, "Well, this is utility work. Whatever the station required, uh, you would be asked to perform, but, whatever they required, you would be performing your duty for your country." So I volunteered, went to St. Hubert, Quebec for a Manning Depot. I was there maybe three weeks-

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:31:03):
... depot. I was there maybe three weeks. We were shipped out to Summerside, uh, Prince Edward Island, No. 9 Service Flying Training School. This was a whole new experience for me. I quickly found out what general duties meant. I was handed a push broom. The blade must have been about four feet wide on the end of this handle. It was my job to sweep the aircraft hangars and to, to wash out the latrines for the airmen and the officers. I envied my colleagues who worked in the hangars. We worked in, uh, not major repair squad. We were sort of halfway between flight squad and major repair. This is where we did daily inspections and weekly inspections. For the aircraft would come in to our hangar and crews would work on the airframe and the air engines to get them in service, to get them back to flight squad.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:32:06):
We were flying the 86 Texas Trainers, which we call Harvards here in Canada. Uh, there are two, uh, tandem seat aircraft. In those days, uh, anyone that worked on the airplane, that is if you were part of the crew, one of the members of that crew had to fly with the test pilot before they were shipped back to flight squadron. Yes, I envied the fellows and I often heard them arguing during the smoking period in the smoke room, uh, about some of the difficulties. It seemed that there was a competition in here in the hangars. If you worked for, uh, a, uh, a fitter crew and if you would be part of the airplane mechanics, uh, or you would be part of the air engine mechanics as, uh, uh, as a fitter and a rigger would be an air framing candidate, the competition of course, was to get that aircraft back in the circus as quickly as possible. So, if there would be, say three or four crews in the hangar working, uh, you would want to be the most efficient crew possible.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:33:24):
There was a hold up quite often, as far as the riggers were concerned because they had to service the hydraulic system as well. Now, the hydraulic system in the Harvard in the 86, uh, Texas Trainers, uh, operated from a selector valve, which was just beside the pilot in the cockpit. The selector valve had a push control lever on it, which when you depressed it, you had to time its, uh, its recovery and the timing had to coincide with the time it took to either raise the undercarriage or lower the flaps. These were hydraulic operations that took place. The difficulty of course was adjusting the timing. It was, it required two wrenches, one for the lock pump and one for the needle valve. And it was located in such a position that you couldn't get at it conveniently. If you sat in the pilot seat without your parachute on, you could slide down on your bum, as far as you could and work over your left shoulder to try to get at it.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:34:29):
Or you had to either stand on the main plane and reach in and be practically upside down in the cockpit to work at it. So this was the bottleneck in the crew. And I heard them complaining about it betterly. I looked at the situation, a number of occasions when I would be sweeping the floors, uh, and they were off on their, uh, coffee break or their break period, and I decided that I could design a tool, do the job with one hand. So I obtained, uh, some tools from one of the mechanics, I worked on device on one of their benches and I fashioned a device that, uh, with one hand, uh, this tool had a whole in the center, which took care of the nut, the locking nut, uh, on the one hand and like a screwdriver point on the other hand. Uh, this way you weren't involved with two hands at the same time doing the work, 'cause you could almost finger type the needle.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:35:41):
And then with the other finger and your thumb working together, you could do the walking. And I thought I had perfected the right tool for this job. It came time to try it out. Well, I searched around and I asked one of the, um, breakers, or one of the crews to try out this tool. It turned out that, uh, this tool in the hands of an incompetent, uh, was useless. I was very disappointed. However, a couple days later, I decided that maybe I had chosen the wrong. So I was a little bit more careful in selecting my, my guinea pig. And in this particular case, I thought the corporal of this crew was probably the most efficient. So I persuaded him to try it. And of course, he was more dexterous and, and found it very convenient. In fact, he was so pleased with it that he, um, asked me not to mention it to anyone. As a result, his crew always led the pack. They always won the prizes to getting their work done more quickly.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:36:58):
Eventually it was found out how it came about. And so the next thing I realized that everyone was asking me to make them the same tool. Well, by now my, my bargaining instincts are taking over and I'm saying, “Well, I can't really do that because that's not my job and I've got other work to do. However, if someone would do my other work, uh, I could maybe do it for you.” So, this way, I was able to get others to clean the, uh, airmen's latrines and sweep floors while I fashioned the tools. Unfortunately, one day when I was in the offices of the training cleaning out, I had the tall, flash, this gentleman came out, stood in the basement next to the one I was cleaning and he said, “Your name is Paul. Is it?” I said, uh, “Yes sir.” He said, “I'd like to see you in my office, uh, when it's convenient for you this afternoon.” I said, “Yes, sir.”

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:37:52):
I wasn't sure what he had in mind, but when I approached him in his office, he said, uh, “I understand that, uh, you fashioned some kind of a tool for the airmen, for the riggers out in the hangar.” I said, “Yes, sir.” He said, uh, “We have, uh, a trade board coming to the air, air drone.” Now you've got to appreciate that had I been accepted as a, as a rigger when I joined up, they would've sent me to St. Thomas for a 12 week training course, either fitter or rigger or instrument, uh, mechanic or electrician or whatever. Uh, when you graduate from trade school in St. Thomas, you graduate with a C group. Now, you get out onto the station and you can improve yourself by sitting for the trade board when it comes to your station.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:38:49):
And if you're successful, you could be graduated to a B group, and eventually to an a group. So he informed me that this trade board was coming in, would I like to sit for the trade board to see what my capabilities were? I said, “I would be delighted.” So, the trade board came. I sat before the examination and I was called back into his office sometime later. And he said, uh, “I've got some good news and some bad news for you. Uh, the good news is that, uh, you passed the trade board as far as being qualified to go to St. Thomas to learn this trade. The bad news is, uh, that, uh, they have given you a big group. So there's really no need for you to go to St. Thomas. However, the option is yours, you can go. But we would rather like to have you stay here.”

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:39:45):
So naturally yeah, I would rather stay too. So I stayed. Next time the trade board came, I thought the A grouping. So, I was not a full fledged, uh, rigger. By then, uh, some German submarines had sunk the caribou, which is the ferry that journeys between Cape Breton and Newfoundland, and even machine guns, some of the surviving members in their life bulb. When the Commonwealth Air Training Scheme felt it was improper to have training bases out on the East Coast. And so they were moved inland. So, No. 9 Service Flying Training School became number one bombing and gunnery school. And we were shipped to Centralia, Ontario. We arrived in Centralia. Uh, however, I sh- should explain it, before we left Summerside, I had been there for about six months. And on my first, uh, leave home, uh, my correspondence with my girlfriend had caught up to me and, uh, I was committed to marriage.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:40:54):
So when I got home on leave, we were married and I brought my bride back to Summerside with me. When it came time to leave Summerside and come back to Ontario, the wives of the airmen all had to leave separately in trains. And then we came later on when the station moved to Centralia. When I arrived in Centralia, we were no longer flying, uh, the harbors, but we had inherited the, um, mark five, mark four and mark five, and this is the twin-engined, uh, bomber.

Ed Brubaker (00:41:34):
That's it.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:41:35):
In the meantime, uh, these were wooden aircraft, of course. And so here, uh, was my opportunity to work on wooden aircraft for the first time. I was put in the carpenter shop, uh, to service the wooden aircraft. We served a very busy time because, uh, the The British Commonwealth Air Training Scheme worked for all of the Commonwealth countries. And so we were providing the training in Canada for places like Australia and New Zealand. A lot of the Australians, the Aussies and the Kiwis that came up here, they were a devil maker crew, uh, preferred to fly by the seed with their pants and, instead of instruments. And an Aussie of course is, is from Australia. They, uh, they were reckless and it was not uncommon to be an unauthorized low flying zones, taking the top shelve trees. You can imagine what hitting a tree does to the leading-edge or the main plane of your aircraft. And these are wooden made planes. And so we were forever repairing leading-edges of main planes. I can even remember repairing three or four holes.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:42:49):
They would knock the top off a tree. It would bounce off the center part of the main plane and somersault itself onto the horizontal stabilizer on the tail plane and punch another hole in it. And it was our job to get that aircraft back and worthy condition the next morning. So, we did a lot of night work. Uh, uh, picture, if you, you will, the aircraft coming into your, uh, hangar for repair and you'd be repairing holes, you'd be rep- repairing leading-edges. And unfortunately, the leading edge of the main plane in those days was made of three ply- plywood. The first plywood would be about three millimeters in thickness. And it would be just impossible to bend around the sharp end on the leading-edge. So I had learned, uh, long before to be prepared. And so I had, uh, leading, pieces of leading-edge material in molded forms in, in soaking bats to, to create the forms so that they were the right shape, uh, when we had to repair.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:43:57):
So we put in the new struts, put in the leading-edge, glue them, build them in place. You'd have to put yellow lacker on them, two or three coats. And if you were unfortunate enough to have to have a whole puncture in the main plane where a roundel was, then you had to have the blue and the red and black colorings. Uh, you also had the, the, uh, letters of the aircraft itself, it's code letters. They would be obliterated, you had to redo that. And so picture yourself, uh, pic- repairing the aircraft, doping it, painting it, and trying to get it back in the flight squad and before eight o'clock the next morning. So, we were a guiding crew. We did our job well. We were proud of our work, so much so that, uh, at one time we had one aircraft that, uh, malfunctioned in flight that is to say, uh, when they came out of a dive, the dive would be so extraneous on the main planes that would jam the hinges on the ailerons that they couldn't control them. So, the pilot would lose control.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:45:04):
This particular aircraft, I remember is number well, 7313, came in and, uh, no one would even test fly it. So I was asked by the squatting leader, McClain, who happened to be the same person that sent me off to, uh, trade school to be remastered from the general duties to an aircraft garment, to an, to an airframe mechanic in those days. Uh, in the meantime, the mosquitoes came out, uh, during the war near the end of the war and the new trade opened up the industry called Aircraft Carpenters. Uh, by now I was a corporal, uh, I remastered to become an aircraft carpenter from an airframe mechanic. I realized that I would lose my rank, I would lose my trade grouping, and I'd have to start over again, but I wanted to be an aircraft carpenter. Uh, when it turned out, after we went through the trade board through the remastering process, I discovered that I retained my, my rank as corporal, I retained my grouping as an A group, uh, aircraft carpenter. So now this, uh, new aircraft comes along that has the problem, the 7313. Uh, I was instructed to strip it completely, remove all plywood, all fabric and, uh, reapply a heavier gauge plywood to stiffen up the main planes. My crew, uh, worked diligently. It took, uh, at least, uh, two weeks, more like three weeks, I think, to, to complete the job on this aircraft. And when it came time to bring the test pilot into test drive, before we could ship it off the flight spot, no one wanted to fly it. Uh, I remember I had volunteered to go with the, with the pilot, with the test pilot. This one test pilot came into the aircraft.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:47:05):
Uh, he did the vital cockpit inspection. And I've seen many pilots, uh, do this inspection by, uh, looking to the left when they took the hand, steering wheel to control the, uh, ailerons and watch it go down, and then turn their head to the right and turn their, their steering wheel and watch the movement on the other end. Never looking at the two at the same time to see that they were synchronized or not. On this particular occasion, he did. Looked at both of them at the same time and we had crossed the cable somehow. And so he got out of the job of having to test fly that it day. We recorrec- corrected our, our error and the next day a new pilot was assigned to the task. I went up with him. Uh, this time everything was fine. We took off, we headed for our, uh, field, uh, station up north at, uh, I think it was called St. Joseph's, uh, north of, uh, uh, Centralia on Lake Jordan. We went out over the lake to do the test flying so that there would be no damage to property on land.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:48:17):
Uh, we went up to 5,000 feet, put her in a, in a nose dive and instructed me on the co-pilot side to observe my main, top of my main plane. And he would do the same on the left. When he reached 350 miles per hour, he pulled out of the dive. We were to look for ripples on the top surface, and I didn't see any on mine. He didn't see any on his. We declared the aircraft s- safe and sound. And, uh, he allowed me to fly back to home base. I had never flown an aircraft before in my life until that day. I was so pleased. I didn't tell him that I didn't know how. Uh, fortunately for me, I had served a few hours on a link trainer when we were at Summerside, uh, but that was a simulated Harvard, which is very sensitive to aircraft controls. Whereas the answers ae not very sensitive and very sluggish and slow to respond to movements. But, uh, I quickly learned, and it was a real thrill.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:49:19):
The, uh, war in Europe was over. I had signed on for the Pacific theater and unfortunately, having done so, uh, I was not discharged with the rest of, uh, the servicemen, uh, that were discharged at the end of hostilities in Europe. As a consequence, uh, I came to Guelph in uniform. I was still not discharged when I started university. I was not qualified for the degree course. I knew, uh, when I, uh, returned home after the war that I wanted to take up farming. During the war, when I was at Summerside, I had signed on for the Canadian Legion education courses, that these were correspondence courses. I took courses in agriculture. I took courses in mechanical and drafting, uh, during, but during the war. And when I came home, I came to my bride's folks where I had s- served as hired man before the war. And being the only child that was home at the time, uh, my wife being the only child was home at the time, I, I told my father-in-law that I wanted to take up farming.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:50:48):
But with very limited experience, I had to rely on him to, for assistance. He said, “Jack, if you wanna be a farmer, I would suggest that you go to Guelph and learn how properly.” So I said, “But I'm not qualified to go to university.” And his, his response was that, “As a serviceman, you're entitled to, uh, some educational training. And, uh, as a senior, uh, you could be accepted into a diploma course.” Well, I was delighted, I was accepted. So I started the two year course here in 1945. When I graduated in '47, my father-in-law had passed away and I was not about to take up farming without him. I, I felt that I needed him, uh, to assist me.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:51:49):
It turned out that we had a, an instructor here, uh, by the name of, uh, Mr. Professor Wolf, uh, who taught us, uh, a new phase of animal husbandry called artificial insemination. This was something new for us at that time. And, uh, I took this special course after graduating with the intent of being an artificial inseminator. When I graduated from the course, I applied to Mr. Clemens, who was secretary of the, uh, Canadian Holstein Friesian Breeders Association, and asked him for a license to permit me to artificial inseminate hosting cattle. And he would not accept me on that capacity. He said, “You would have to prove yourself first.” And the way to do that is you would have to have someone that would donate 25 cows to us, to our program. And if you could prove that you can get 60% conception rate on those 25 animals, then we'll give you a license to inseminate.”

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:52:59):
Not being related to anyone that had cattle, uh, was impossible for me to get that. And so I had no al- no alternatives. In the meantime, I had enjoyed education the two years I was here at Guelph to the point where I wanted to continue on. I, I wanted to be in the degree course. I was not the only one. There were 12 of us in the diploma course at that time. We approached our department of veterans affairs advisor and said we would like to carry on. He was a little bit disappointed in us. And he said that had you intended to do this in the first place, we could have done it conveniently and it would've saved the government one year of extra expense. I decided that irrespective, I still wanted to go on as did some of my fellow classmates.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:53:53):
And so the agreement was made that we would have to go to a rehabilitation school at our own expense, come back to the University of Guelph and pay for our freshman year out of our pocket. And then they would pick up the tab in the remaining three years. We all agreed to do so. We all ended up in Hamilton at the rehabilitation school. Uh, I took, uh, five junior matriculation subjects and three senior matriculation subjects, came back to Guelph. I think about four or five of us the rehabilitation to come back to Guelph. Uh, to our surprise, when we arrived back at Guelph, the department of veterans affairs had decided to cover our expenses. The University of Guelph had decided to accept us into the second year of the degree program. So we skipped the first year.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:54:54):
So, it really did not cost me anything to make that transition from this diploma course to the degree course. I enjoyed the work in the degree course. I was now able to, uh, pursue, uh, my first training in the air force when I took the correspondence courses in animal husbandry and engineering, that is mechanical drafting. So I decided to be an agricultural engineer. Uh, that was not the, the option knowing in those days it was agricultural mechanics. But nevertheless, that's the route, the goal that I chose or targeted.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:55:42):
The first years of, at the University of Guelph in the degree course program, put me in contact with a, a whole new group of classmates, entirely different than the ones I had had in the diploma course. Quite a few were married. Many of them were s- were war veterans. They were, let us call them adults (laughs) as opposed to university students. Much of, of course, I was an adult too, married and had a child by now. And so it was difficult for us to fit in to student life because we lived off campus. Many of us lived off campus. Before I started university in 1945, my father-in-law and my bride came to go out to look for a place to live. It was difficult, there were not that many places available in 1945 for us.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:56:54):
They had searched over the entire system, c- city, and they had come up on three different occasions from, from Simcoe to Guelph to look for a place. And on the last trip up, there was a small cottage, stucco cottage being built on Stevenson Street. It wasn't finished yet, but it was for sale. And my bride and her father decided that they, they would purchase it. When, uh, the deal was, uh, completed, the salesman said that he could negotiate, uh, a mortgage for us. And my father-in-law of course, uh, being an independent person as he was, uh, took a offense to somebody suggesting that he would have to mortgage something. He said, uh, he would pay cash. Just tell him what the amount was and he would write out a check for him. When the salesman recovered from, from his slung position (laughs) in the chair, uh, he told him it was $2,400. Our first house in Guelph, new house, new college.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:58:15):
We, uh, lived there for the diploma years. We had friends, classmates came to this house. We had very many enjoyable, uh, weekends. I wouldn't call them parties. Uh, these were good, clean friends of mine. I've never had alcohol, uh, in my home. I've never smoked in my life. So when I say good, clean living, uh, you understand what I mean. Parties that we went to were not drunken parties. We loved, my wife and I loved square dancing. Just about every Saturday night there was a square dance either in Aberfoyle or in Allora, uh, that we would go to. And of course, downtown Guelph in the old h- fellas hall, Upper Windham Street. We loved dancing. We loved square dancing. So, this is the kind of fun that, that we enjoyed as, as students. My, uh, total income, I think was something like $90 a month, which was my payment from the air force, uh, which went up to, I believe $110 a month, uh, with wife and child eventually.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (00:59:49):
And that put us through, uh, with my wife having to work, of course. I had no debt when I graduated because we had looked after ourselves and I owed all of my education to my father-in-law for the home that he had purchased for us. We had, we didn't have to pay rent, uh, for the house that we lived in. And my wife worked, put me through school. And so these are our early years in Guelph. I had to appreciate the fellowship of the war veterans, the mature students, that we had, the determination on their part to make a success of their programs. Uh, all of this added to the challenge of being a student at a university. Not every, ever attended high school, but only public school. This, this had real meaning for me. Uh, and it was a whole new experience. I enjoyed it so much that I wouldn't stop. I didn't stop. I received my bachelor's degree. I decided to stay on and do a master's degree.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:01:09):
I had 51 months of education credit coming to me. And so I was accepted as a master's degree student. My master's, my thesis project was the design and development of a loose housing system for dairy cattle management. Loose housing for dairy cattle came into being in about 1949. I had done a survey of many dairy farmers in the province of Ontario at that time, asked them how long they had been using this system. And most of the replies were one year, although I did receive one reply that said 40 years. Imagine you thought you were on the brink of new grounds.

Ed Brubaker (01:02:01):
How did that make, could feel?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:02:02):
A little-

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:02:02):
...rounds.

Ed Brubaker (01:02:02):
How did that make you feel?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:02:03):
Little disappointed, because, you know, you think you're creating new, innovative, uh, research. However, on closer examination, uh, you begin to quickly realize that even though he'd been using a system of loose housing for forty years, it certainly wasn't the modern, uh, dairy cattle management system. It simply meant that he didn't keep his animals tied up in stanchions; they were just loose in the pen. Uh, it took the new concept of loose housing with, uh, the new terminology of milking parlors and loafing areas, this sort of thing is the new concept of loose housing.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:02:49):
At the University of Guelph, uh, we set up the system using eighteen, uh, dairy cattle in the Harrison Barn. This is the barn that housed, uh, Barre Olstile. I saw that logo on some of the letters that were written for the year 49, uh, book reunion. Uh, Barre Olstile refers to the Ayrshire cows. He was a seventeen year-old and had set the world record for, uh, milk production at that time.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:03:26):
It was a nice environment, uh, for my research. Roy Harrison was the, uh, herdsman that lived, uh, in the, uh, at the residence at the barn. And he's the one that did all the chores, uh, where I did all the time and most of the studies, uh, for my, uh, graduate work.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:03:47):
The only disappointment, uh, in all of that work was, uh, the fact that these seventeen Ayrshires I had and one Guernsey. The one Guernsey had no horns, and the Ayrshire of course has, is noted for its beautiful horns. And they were all horned animals. And of course, they took advantage of the de-horned Guernsey. And on one occasion, then, the veterinarians came over with a class of students, and they were going to demonstrate de-horning techniques. Well, they elected to dehorn the Ayrshires that afternoon, all of them. Uh, that was a sad day for me, to see these beautiful horns taken off these Ayrshire cattle. And the poor cows, uh, uh, running around the, the outside enclosure. 'Cause we had taken one side of the barn out and extended the inside to the outside, so that they had more, uh, loafing area space. And as the animals courted around the, the enclosure on the outside, the, their bleeding horns, uh, stubs, would spatter the walls, and there was a streak of blood around the entire yard.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:05:08):
Other than that, uh, I enjoyed the research I did. It was written up and, uh, I hope that many farmers benefited from the early research we did. I know one farmer in particular did. Uh, from, uh, Innerkip, near Woodstock. Well this, uh, particular farmer had installed an innovative cattle feeder. Uh, the object of the loose housing system in those days was to allow the animals in the loafing area to bed themselves. The farmer simply brought in fresh straw on a daily basis and covered up the droppings of the day before. Uh, in order to conserve bedding and to keep the manure pack as low as possible, they would often pick up the fresh droppings and throw them to the outside, because cattle tend to hover in the middle, and the middle would pile up quicker than the outside edges.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:06:09):
But the main objective was, of course, to commence heating in the manure pack, so that when the animals lie down, it wouldn't take them very long to warm up the, uh, bedding between themselves and the heating manure pack underneath. This tended to provide a more docile animal, that would remain in the, on the bedded area in the warmth for longer periods of time. They wouldn't be as restless. Uh, they would simply, uh, chew their cuds and regurgitate and produce milk.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:06:48):
In this particular case, uh, this farmer, recognized the problem of, uh, this manure pack increasing in depth, where the animals would be practically standing on their heads with their hind feet up on a high pile and their front feet down to a low bunk feeder. So he designed a system which meant that the feeder could be elevated, uh, with a simple truck jack. So he mounted the feeder on a truck jack, and as the manure pack, uh, increased in depth, he simply raised the bottom of the feeder, so that the cattle could feed, uh, normally.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:07:27):
I remember bringing the university photographer with me on one occasion to that farm to, uh, take some photographs of the animals. The housewife in this particular case was just as interested as her husband was in, uh, seeing that we were properly accommodated when we arrived at the farm. They took us out to the milking parlor, which had been newly painted, and it was so neat and clean and tidy that, uh, there was a fruit bowl on the deep freezer. In those days, uh, milk was still collected in cans, and they canned the milk after it cooled. And so they were put in, uh, side opening door coolers where cool water was sprayed on top of the cans. And the top of these coolers, of course, uh, is where this fruit bowl was. And a guestbook, we had to sign the guestbook. And there were ash trays, just in case a visitor might be a smoker, so that they wouldn't drop ashes on the floor in this, uh, milking parlor.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:08:32):
This is a whole new concept of milking cattle on the farm. It certainly brought in the new revolution of loose housing system for dairy cattle management, which I was pleased to be a part. This is part of the first job that I had when I was taken on staff at the University of Guelph in the engineering department. Uh, I enjoyed my distribution of teaching and research and extension. Generally, all the years that I've been there, I've al...pretty well always followed the rule of 55 percent, uh, teaching, and 35 percent, uh, uh, research and, and 10 percent extension. My extension time took me, in many cases, out to the farms.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:09:18):
Immediately after the war, uh, farm building was at a very slow pace. We must remember that during the five years of the war, uh, most of the materials went into the war effort, and there was very little available for farmers for reconstruction. Besides, it kept the farmers busy, uh, by themselves, uh, because they had no help on the farm. Their sons, nephews, and so forth were, uh, overseas in many cases, um, during the, the war period.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:09:53):
When these people came back from the war, many of them married, and some even with families. This put a great strain on the farm, because now, the farm had to support more than one family. And quite often, uh, farm herds were increased in size to increase the income to the family units. Unfortunately, there was no building material available to increase the accommodation for the increased herd size. In many situations, this ended up with the farmer, uh, having to convert the original general purpose barn to a barn for the milking herd. And then young stock and replacement stock had to be accommodated elsewhere. This is usually done by collecting poles from the woodlot, uh, and building a shed-type arrangement on the outside of the barn to accommodate the young stock. This is the only way that farmers could cope with the increase in capacity of the, the animals, and to provide a second income for the new families that arrived after the war.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:11:15):
My job, in many cases, uh, was redesigning these barns for the new environment. Picture the old-fashioned, typical Ontario barn of the day was a forty foot wide building, sixty feet long, generally a bank barn. Uh, a ramp allowed you access to the main floor above the basement area, where the animals were accommodated. It's not uncommon to find a corner of the barn accommodating, uh, perhaps three or four horse stalls, uh, a pig pen in another corner and a few, uh, stalls or stanchions cross-ways the barn. A very inefficient, uh, layout for a modern dairy operation.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:11:57):
As a result, I found myself designing many, uh, layouts to accommodate the old environment. It got to the point where I spent more time in the office doing drawings than I was actually out assisting farmers in their redesign. To overcome this problem, I decided to have a uniform barn plan. I made a simple structural design of the typical Ontario barn and made multiple copies of it so that every time I went out onto the job, it was a simple matter to take out my copy, take a red pencil, and modify it to the current operation, which is very little different because the standard barn is pretty uniform, which simplified my work.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:12:45):
This became the, the forerunner, then, of a planned service. So that as I came back to the office each time on a farm visit, it was a simple matter to take the basic plan, make a few modifications, put the farmer's name on it, and catalog it in our inventory of, uh, farm plans. Pretty soon, these farm plans, the new ones, looked so similar in every case that, well, why not adopt a common one? And as a result, then, uh, the planned service which we, uh, initiated at that time grew to such proportions that we put out special catalogs for all the classes of livestock on the farm, including grain and, uh, hay storage buildings, fruit and vegetable storage structures, as well as animal shelters.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:13:41):
From that, uh, the next phase of the, uh, revolution of agricultural engineering on the farm was materials handling. It seemed that, uh, a new concept of extension service came into being in the early 50's. The agricultural representative, uh, was being plagued with inquiries, uh, from an engineering point of view, that they were not able to address. And as a consequence, help was provided in the form of agricultural engineering extension specialists. Uh, these specialists became specialists in their own rank. Uh, many of them became poultry specialists, beef cattle specialists, dairy cattle specialists, fruit and vegetable storage specialists. Uh, and as these specialties, uh, came into being, the system of conveying materials became an important issue.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:14:44):
And picture, if you will, then, a farmer, uh, requiring some assistance in a materials handling project on, say, a grain farm, for example. His question, of course, is how do I get the grain from the standing crop, uh, to a storage bin and ultimately to a retail consumer? Uh, the kinds of materials that would be required to move that crop, or that product, uh, from harvesters, uh, to transport vehicles, uh, to, uh, continuous cloak vehi...uh, devices like augers, uh, conveyor belts, uh, bale elevators and this sort of thing. These became items of real concern to the extension specialists.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:15:34):
Picture, if you will, then, each one of these forty-odd extension specialists in the province, each having to have filing cases of all of these conveyor equipment from different manufacturers in their files, and having to dig them out every time that a farmer came to them with a problem. Uh, this became a real challenge. And to address that challenge, it seemed that a simply materials handling catalog, where all of this would have been put together, uh, for each of the extension specialists to have at their fingertips. The best way to move, uh, grain or whatever the product might be, horizontally or vertically or an inclined surface. What's the best equipment to use, be it an auger, elevators, or belt conveyors, or, or bale conveyors. Uh, this would all be argued out, put on graphs, charts, to assist them in making the right decision to assist that farmer at that time.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:16:42):
Uh, I'm happy to have been part of the Canadian Farm Land Service and the Agricultural Materials Handling Manual, which is an offshoot of my extension work, uh, in the agricultural engineering department at the University of Guelph.

Ed Brubaker (01:17:00):
Jack, let's go back to college days. Uh, do you remember, uh, being involved in any pranks or, uh, activities like that? I know you were very much involved in the College Royal exhibits there, and so on. Did you have any favorite professors that helped you more than others, as you recall?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:17:24):
Well, the, the College Royal brings back, uh, some pleasant memories. I remember very specifically being a, a contestant a College Royal in 1949. I didn't, I didn't realize at the time that I was competing as vigorously as I was. I thought I was simply showing, uh, some of my talents, various classes that were offered. And at the end of the day, I suddenly discovered, as did my classmates, that I had achieved the largest number of points for the College Royal that year. But I could not be titled as the grand champion showman, because I had not shown an animal. This was a bit of a disappoint...disappointment for me, so I, I had decided that the next year, I was going to really compete for this championship prize, and discover somehow or another how I would be able to show an animal.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:18:37):
What I didn't realize was, of course, that this was a very competitive area. One that I had had very little experience in. The competitiveness came about from the various clubs were formed at that time on the campus. So we had our agricultural engineering club, and our animal science club. And the animal science club were a close-knit group, and they were going to see to it that I would not be able to obtain an animal to show at the Royal.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:19:16):
Fortunately, I must have had some friends, because somehow or another, uh, they had arranged for me to obtain an animal for showing. All the other work, I was quite competent with, insofar as cleaning the various grains for clean grain competition to win various ribbons in showing soybeans and wheat and barley and oats, as well as all my engineering exhibits. I had spent some time in a local harness shop down in Guelph. It's no longer existing, but at that time it was called Sweeney's Harness Makers. And, uh, I was allowed to use their harness, uh, uh, vices, which they used for making harnesses for horses, to make myself a leather, uh, halter for cattle. Um, items that were made in the machine shop, hand, uh, or knurling, uh, metal handles on, uh, metal mallets, and this type of thing. These were all part of the, of the exhibits.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:20:26):
But as far as the animal showing was concerned, uh, I finally learned that I was going to receive a two year-old, uh, roan colored Clydesdale horse for my showing. It was very unnaturally colored, which I thought was two strikes against me to start with. A lanky, uh, skinny animal that, uh, didn't look like a show type animal. But of course, I realized that it wasn't the animal that's being tested here, and examined, but the showmanship of the person that's, uh, exhibiting the animal. I remember spending many hours trying to braid tulips into the animal's mane and tail, and a number of hours scouring the animal clean, uh, using linseed oil to shine the coat, and, uh, boot black polish to make the hooves shine up. Uh, so I, I spent my time looking after the animal itself, and tried to become acquainted with it, so that I could manage it for the judges.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:21:41):
Came judging time, I realized that I was one of a class of about seven animals to be shown that afternoon. And after the judges had gone through their initial stages, and they lined them up in the order of, uh, selection, uh, I was about, uh, number six on the lineup. I realized that I didn't have to be first. All required for the competition was to place, which meant that I had to be in the top three. Uh, then as we were asked to perform additional duties, uh, such as, uh, trotting the animal directly in, in line with the judge's vision, away and towards, and a few other things of standing. Uh, I learned very early in my training that I had to keep a tight rein on the halter shank and make the horse keep its head up straight. And, uh, where to touch the animal to, uh, make him a little bit nervous and prance a little bit and stand in a proper position. These were all tricks that some of my colleagues had instructed me in.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:22:54):
But slowly, uh, during the course of the afternoon, I worked myself up to the second place. So I had achieved that objective of placing in my class of showing an animal. And fortunately, all the other points at that had been accumulated to the point where I was declared the grand champion showman for the College Royal in 1950.

Ed Brubaker (01:23:23):
Even though you were in animal science and then the animal clubs, you, you were grand champion showman in a, basically a livestock show?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:23:33):
Yes, yes. I, I...I must admit, however, that, uh, during my early years in the diploma course, I spent a lot of time in the old animal husbandry building on the campus. I used to take my lunch, I had always my lunch in the laboratory. And one of the instructors that I was very friendly with at the time, uh, the only reason I was friendly with him is because he would come into the laboratory where I was having my lunch about twenty minutes before his class started to put his material on the board. And this person was, uh, his name was Professor Eric Runyons. Uh, his nickname was Bunny Runyons. Uh, he taught the courses in sheep husbandry.

Ed Brubaker (01:24:24):
And his...?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:24:26):
Many years later, I, I became very friendly with, uh, his wife. We taught creative arts together. She taught, uh, painting and I taught, uh, wood carving. Uh, much of this was done in Hornsville at the high school in late, later years.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:24:48):
I also became very friendly with his son, James Runyons, well, who became a mason. And, uh, our sonic careers were parallel somewhat in later years. At the time, uh, Ms. Professor Runyons would chat, chat with me occasionally, because at that time, I had spent a lot of time in the archives at the animal science department, tracing histories of animals. Uh, I was very interested in Johannes Reyacher Patz and his history, uh, for the simple reason that later on, in 1953, when the veterinary college, uh, first received a lot of publicity for exhibiting to the world, uh, the first, uh, Guerns...Guernsey-Jersey calf, born via artificial insemination, from semen that had been in storage for some seven years.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:25:57):
I was asked by, uh, Dr. Henderson, uh, who was the veterinarian at the time, uh, to design for them a, uh, a storage system for semen. Uh, they instructed me that this should not be electrically controlled, because they would not trust on electricity. Uh, so I designed a particular cabinet made of stainless steel, uh, drawers, and surrounded, uh, by wood paneling, a device that would accommodate, um, dry ice for storage, because semen had to be stored at minus seven degrees Centigrade for safe storage.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:26:45):
The reason, uh, for non-dependence on electrical energy was, uh, that we had been collecting semen, uh, from this famous bull that I had been researching, Johannes [inaudible]. Uh, he had been the grand champion bull for Holstein Friesian Breeders' Association at the Royal Winter Fair for four year, the previous four years in a row. I believe that, uh, his, uh, to conceive, to have an, a cow conceived by this bull cost a farmer, in those days, about $400.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:27:25):
The, uh, veterinary college, then, had collected, uh, 2,000 diluted vials. In other words, an ejaculate from...one ejaculate from a bull, when properly diluted in, into milk and egg yolk media, and then taken out into 2 cc vials, uh, would produce about forty servings. Uh, and so here we had about 2,000 servings in this storage cabinet. That year, the bull died, so you can imagine the value of the semen, then, uh, from this famous bull. So the, it was very important that they not rely on an unreliable energy source. That was my experience there as far as, uh, the veterinary college was concerned.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:28:15):
I have since been asked by, uh, Bill Mitchell, who taught a course in veterinary medicine. Um, my assistance to him was, uh, a type of structures that a dairy man or other livestock breed would be interested in to conserve the energy produced by the animals within the structure so that that, uh, environment in which that animal lived was a healthy environment and not conducive to, uh, colds and pneumonias and this sort of thing. So, I enjoyed my connection with the veterinary college in that matter. I enjoyed my connection with the animal husbandry department in the persons of Bunny Runyons and, uh, Frank Wolf, uh, who taught the artificial insemination. Uh, he later left the university and became part of the Canadian Pacific Railroad Administration, so I lost contact with him. Uh, Bunny Runyons, of course, passed away, uh, while I was still a student at the university back in those days. One of the largest funerals, uh, held at St. Andrews Church here in Guelph at that time.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:29:38):
The professors at the engineering department when I was a student were primarily, uh, Glenn Downing, uh, Jim...

Ed Brubaker (01:29:49):
Scott.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:29:50):
...Scott, and, uh, there were two or three others. John Kunzig, uh, Duc Jackson, and Ken...

Ed Brubaker (01:30:04):
Gordon.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:30:05):
...Gordon.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:30:07):
Joe, uh, Gulliver and I spent many hours together, because, uh, I, when I was taken on staff...well actually, Joe's the one that started me teaching engineering. Because, uh, when I had transferred into the degree course, in those days, I think manual training was part of the, uh, engineering program, and my first class was with Mr. Gulliver, in, uh, in his manual training shop. There were about, uh, twenty-odd benches in the classroom. Each bench, uh, had its own little slots with chisels and plane and a backsaw. Uh, Joe loved to talk when he got in front of class; he loved to tell stories. And I was standing, uh, in front of my bench, about, uh, three-quarters of the way back in the classroom.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:31:07):
And as I stood there, I saw this little pile of lumber on my desk, as it was on everyone else's desk, little pieces of one-by-two, about, uh, ten or twelve inches long. And then I saw some drawings on the board which showed, uh, they showed a half-lap joint, a rabbet joint, and a, a Mortise and Tenon joint. I assumed that this was going to be our assignment for the afternoon. But as, uh, as I looked at the plane and I started to dress my lumber on the, in the vice, uh, I had some bad experience. The plane bit was very poor shaped. Took the plane apart, uh, happened to see some stones on the Wainscoting on the sidewall in the classroom. Bent over, picked up one and sharpened my bit and put it in the plane and proceeded to dress my lumber and cut, and Mr. Gulliver's continuing to tell stories up at the front.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:32:09):
I'm oblivious to him, and he doesn't even notice me in the classroom. And then suddenly, he stopped, and he said, uh, well, students, uh, today we're going to do, uh, a, uh, a Miter joint. I want you to first dress, uh, two pieces and then, uh, we'll explain how to do the Miter cuts and so I want you to get started. He stepped off the platform, stepped down onto the floor and, uh, went up and down a few rows. When he came to my desk, I had already finished all of my joints, and he said, oh, we have a smart-alec in the class. And I looked surprised at him, and he picked up my samples of joints, looked at them, and he said, uh, and how much did you pay for these?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:33:02):
And how much did you pay for these? And I looked shocked and he said, "Well, don't look so strange at me. I know that you bought these from some student the year before. Who did this?" I said, "No, I did not." He says, "You mean, you did these this afternoon?" I said, "Yes, sir." He says, "I don't believe it." I said, "Not only did I do them this afternoon, I had to sharpen my own plane bit. It was in such poor shape." And he said, "Oh, you sharpened the plane bit?" I said, "Yes, sir." He said, "Show me how you take the plane bit out of the plane."

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:33:44):
Uh, so I demonstrated what I had done. Now, I realized afterwards that to an expert cabinet maker, there are certain moves that you make when you're just assembling, um, items of, of implementation. This implement, this block plane had a frog base and had a tight, uh, tightening adjustment screw, and had a leveling feature to adjust the position. And just the way I handled the plane very professionally, he immediately recognized that this was not an amateur he was talking to but, but a professional. So his first reaction was, was that he needed help in this class. Uh, this was a tremendous year. This is the largest class that had ever come into the University of Guelph. And, uh, how was he going to cope at an annual training shop with all of these students by himself? So he asked me if I would help. Uh, he said, "I'll give you an automatic, uh, 75% grade in this course."

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:34:56):
And I said to him, uh, "No, uh, I'm planning on making a 90% average in this course because I'm not a very good student, but I am proficient in woodworking. And I'm looking at this course to bring up my average. So I can't accept the 75%." He said, "Well, that's all I'm authorized to give." I said, "Well, I'm sorry then." And he said, "Well, uh, maybe if I discuss it with a director." I said, "Well, that's fine." He said, "Well, come down with me then we'll go to his office." So we went down to professor Downing's office.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:35:34):
Now you've got to appreciate that this is the first head to face with the head of this school, the school, uh, for me. Glen Downing served in the army in the second world war. A graduate at the University of Saskatchewan asked to come down to Guelph and head up the engineering department in 1946, I believe it was at that time. And, uh, he turned to Mr. Gulliver and he said, uh, "We really need some help, do we in manual training?" He said yes. "And this person is qualified to help you?" He said, "Yes, I have every confidence in him as an assistant." And he says, "And what's the arrangement for grades?" And he said, " I can, I can give him 75% but he wants 90%." He said, "Well, you need the help, give him 90% qualif-, sure he qualified."

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:36:44):
So I was hired then to assist Mr. Gulliver in the woodworking shop. We used the woodworking shop later on, uh, when I was in the degree course to, uh, to pull, uh, off one of the biggest pranks at the University of Guelph. It had been customary up to that time and year 49 set the example for us to, uh, paint your year letters on the water tower on the campus, not a, an easy feat.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:37:22):
Unfortunately, uh, the year gets levied a fine to repaint the tower. And that fine could cost the students, uh, close to $200. We didn't want to have to pay a $200 fine. That is, uh, five of us, uh, that were in this prank together. And we didn't want to impose that on our classmates. So we decided that we would, instead of painting our year letter, our year numbers on that wall, water tower, we would paste our crest, our full length crest. So we got the white butcher wrapping paper, the waxy surface, and we unlaid four strips of paper, uh, five strips of paper, uh, about 10 feet long on the floor in the lab.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:38:20):
And we recreated our year crest. That is the shield and the [inaudible], uh, sheath of wheat and the plow, this sort thing, as well as our letters and so forth in color. Rolled it up and then waited for an occasion to, uh, to paste this on the tower. There were four of us that were elected to do this task.

Ed Brubaker (01:38:46):
At night?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:38:47):
At night because you couldn't be seen when this is done. You have to do it... Not only do you have to worry about the security, but you also have to worry about the next year behind you because, uh, it's, it, it's a coup for a year to put their letters up without somebody taking them down. And, uh, I don't recall what year '49 did to keep us painting over their letters. But, uh, we decided that, uh, we would put axle grease on the rungs of the ladder that went up, uh, to the tower. We knew that, that would, uh, deter anyone from trying to take down our, our wallpaper. But we didn't realize that, of course this was done after. We didn't paste, pasted the logo on the, on the tower. Trying to get up there in the first place, the first rung, uh, to the cross landing is 110 feet. The rungs are a foot apart and there were 110 of them to get to the landing. One of our members, uh, Charlie Miller, uh, wouldn't get past the top of the ladder. Once he got on the landing, he laid flat on his stomach hanging onto the sides for dear life and he wouldn't budge an inch any direction. So we had to step over him and then go out to the landing and climb up the backward climb inclining ladder up to the, up to the ramp around the tower.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:40:25):
We, uh, started pasting on the one side and the first two strips went up, uh, reasonably, well. I say reasonably well. We had to use, uh, an extension, on the push broom, because the handle was only about five feet long. And so we needed another two feet on the end of that. So we got a piece of one by two lumber and threaded that in and used that. But then we realized that one by two lumber bent backwards on us. And instead of the brush push in the wall, the little one by two board was always pushing paper. But the only way we could do that then was to stand on the railing, which gave us an extra two and a half feet of lift and face outward and, and lean backwards or reach backwards over our heads with compression to push it up.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:41:18):
By the time we got the third strip on, the wind was starting to pick up and we were having difficulty getting that fourth strip up. Uh, the wind would carry it. And finally we were getting so tired. Uh, I was the one that was doing the, the brushing and the other two were holding my, my leg on the, on the railing, uh, that we decided to let it go. So we ended up with the last strip, uh, tapering out about seven inches at the top, uh, and gave up. We threw down all of our material that is, uh, the first one up carried the rope on his shoulder and the next one carried part of the rope. And the third one carried the other part of the rope so that we could share the load. Then when we got to the top, we threw the rope over the rail, down to the fifth member that was down on the ground to tie the buckets to it and the other material that we needed, but we didn't lower it down with the rope.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:42:18):
We were in a rush to get out of there so we just threw everything down. I remember the handle on my broom, uh, landing down in and immersing itself into the soil by about 16 inches, uh, the weight, the force. The next morning we were able to look out of our classroom window on the second floor of the engineering building and we couldn't even see the gap, the seven inch gap and it was beautiful. And of course, uh, we didn't have, we were not levied any fine because with the rains over the next two weeks, uh, it finally washed everything away but we had accomplished our, our prank. Uh, and by greasing the, the rung set, no one was able to go up there and take it down for us. That was my biggest prank attending the University of Guelph. It's pretty vividly clear in my memory.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:43:17):
The difficult part was when we finally had to bring Charlie down. Uh, two of us had to go down the ladder before. The third one stayed up above Charlie's head and pushed him and forced him down so that he got his hind, his legs over the railing and the two below, he took a leg and uh, we finally pulled him down the, the ladder to get him back to the ground.

Ed Brubaker (01:43:46):
So he never went back up again. (laughs) Okay, yeah, we remember these things, don't we?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:43:52):
(laughs)

Ed Brubaker (01:43:53):
Jack, uh, you had been very actively involved with the masons over the years, freemasonry. Uh, can you tell us what, uh, twigged your interest in them in masonry and, uh, maybe some of the things you have done for that organization?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:44:15):
My, my father was a mason. He joined the masonic fraternity in Windsor and he became a member in 1927. I wear his masonic ring today, which my mother gave me when my father passed away. I can remember seeing my father many times with this little black book, uh, memorizing his, uh, his assignments. No one knew where dad went on lodge night. He never talked about bus because in those days, uh, masonry, uh, lived under a blanket of secrecy. Everyone said that freemasonry was a secret society. And there are many that, even to this day, uh, don't even tell their wives about freemasonry.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:45:12):
But freemasonry is not a secret society. It's a society with secrets, uh, methods of recognition. Uh, a handshake for example, uh, can be secret. It's not something that if you want to recognize someone as a mason in a crowd, uh, you can usually do so. Generally, I can recognize mason just from their speech. Uh, from words that they use in, in normal dialogue. There are phrases that are used in freemasonry that identify masons to each other.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:45:54):
The fact that freemasonry has been labeled a secret society over the years, uh, has in some respects been good for the craft. And in my res-, perspective, uh, it's not been good for the craft. Generally, secrecy, uh, instills a feeling of mystique. And, uh, you want to find out more about something you don't know, something about that sounds secret and mysterious. Uh, and that brings in your membership. Unfortunately, some of those members when they find out that there is no real secrecy in masonry except for a few recognition signs, uh, become disenchanted and, and are no longer members. Uh, that's not good for the craft. I think the craft should be a little bit more open, uh, in their accomplishments and create an environment where people want to be part of it because they know what it does.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:47:06):
And what most people do not know is it's benevolence in society. In the olden days, not in modern when, uh... There were no healthcare system, there was no welfare. There was no pension plans. Uh, when, when a husband passed away leaving, uh, a wife and children, uh, there was no care. And so the masonic fraternity in the old days, their first obligation was to widows and orphans. There are, there were many homes built for widows and orphans, particularly in the British Isles. But with modern society, this is no longer necessary so you look at other means of serving society.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:47:58):
When our grand master in 1981 decided... And every grand master, this is a two year term in our province, uh, comes up for his, uh, tenure, he would like to take on a project. Now in that year, the project was decided by the physicians. The fraternity went to the physicians and said, "What needs to be done? What is your most urgent need of the day?" And the comment that came back to us was hearing for children. "Uh, this is one area of society that is not being addressed properly. But we do not want a large lump sum of money for research in hearing for children. We would like something that went on for perpetuity. And that would be preferred to a lump sum." But how much should this be? "Well, if we could be guaranteed $60,000 annually or in perpetuity, that would be wonderful." The interest rates in those days was, uh, above the 10% level. So it seemed obvious then that we'd have to raise something like $600,000, uh, to invest so that there would be an annual... Now Masonry cannot go to the public for this kind of assistance. It must be done in-house, internally. So we set the target on a two year plan to raise $600,000 for this purpose. The target was reached within the first year, not only 600, I think it was closer to $900,000 raised in the first year. And so today we have, uh, coupler implants for children, which was the result of that research back in 19... And not only, I mean, you can picture going to large meetings and showing slides, in those days, uh, VCRs were, were not very popular. But generally slides, children with wires coming out of their ears, um, chest packs and this sort of thing. Uh, infants, you know, that don't have an understanding of why they have to be wired this way to the ear whereas the cochlea implant was something that had no wires attached at all.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:50:49):
And we look at child and the joy of that child being able to hear, uh, its parents and its mates. So this is the sort of thing that masonry does in society. It's an in-house thing. It's not like, uh, gambling for a car to, to give tickets, you know, to raise money for our society. But it's something that, that's from the heart. Each individual mason to contribute without fanfare, because there's no publicity. If, if it be known to society that in North America, of course, this includes United States and Canada, that close to 2 million dollars a day is contributed to charitable, uh, work.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:51:41):
So that there's a real challenge to that type of person to become, uh, part of [inaudible] return. Um, I'm not saying that everyone is geared up this way. There are, there are some that have ulterior motives, um, car salesman, for example, want to increase their, their clientele. So they'll join the craft in order to, to be in a, in a group where they have, uh, an audience, uh, that they can address. Of course, once, once they become a member, they begin to realize that, that, uh, is not part of masonry and it's unheard of in lodging.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:52:24):
There are some people that say that masonry is a religion, which it isn't. Uh, if it were a religion, then where do you draw the line? And, uh, masonry of course has, uh, uh, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Catholics, uh, all religions are represented in the craft. And mason, and religion is not part of discussions in lodging.

Ed Brubaker (01:52:57):
Jack, you have, uh, gone through the various degrees in freemasonry. You have also done a lot of woodworking for them in making of candles and so on and plaques. Can you tell us a little bit about your work on that?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:53:17):
Uh, I happened to be visiting a large brother in Toronto one day and, uh, I happened to glance in his glass case, in his la-, in his living room. Uh, and I saw a turning, a lathe turning small piece of wood, about three quarter inch in, uh, diameter and about 10, 11 inches in length. And, uh, some semblance of carving started at one end. And I inquired as to the, the history of this piece of Wood. My, uh, host of the evening said that, uh, it was a challenge that he had taken up that he wanted to create, uh, an exact replica of, uh, a gavel that had been used in a prisoner of war camp, uh, in the first world war in Germany.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:54:15):
It turned out that this prisoner of war camp had a masonic lodge in the compound. Now, in order to conduct the lodge properly, they had to have working tools. So they had to create their own tools. And this person created the gavel, uh, which is the master's, uh, symbol. And, uh, he carved that with a sharp edge of the 303 shell, empty shell that he had which he used as a gauge, uh, our gout. And he did a beautiful job. And my friend wanted to make three replicates of that particular, uh, instrument. One for the [inaudible] master and one for each of his two wardens, the senior, junior warden.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:55:04):
And I said, "Well, how long have you been working on this? He says, oh, that's been there for three, months. I said, wouldn't you expect to finish it? He said, "Well, I'm not sure that I will finish it the rate I'm going. I said, "Gee, that's, that's the kind of a challenge I would like, I mean, could, could I do this for you? He says, "Voluntarily, I mean, you want to do this?" I said, "Yeah, it's a challenge. I like this kind of challenge." He says, "Be my guest." So he got the original for me. I brought it home. And, uh, within a few weeks, uh, I had duplicated that original, uh, gavel and, uh, actually made five of them because, uh, three had to be presented to, uh, university lodge in Toronto, uh, to be used by the master of these two wardens.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:55:59):
The fourth one, uh, I wanted our lives to keep it as a memento for their historical records. And I actually started, uh, two more, uh, in case I made a mess of, well..., I did make a mess of one of them and so I actually only paid five. Three for university lives, one for heritage lives, and one personally for myself, which I had used as a model for many gavels that I've made since then. Yes, I've made a number of things, uh, on wood for the craft. Uh, that's being the most important.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:56:39):
And currently I'm on the challenging, uh, end of, of, of using the same design. Although I made it a little bit more masonic by using more Masonic numbers, the original is not quite as, as Masonic because it has even numbers in terms of the first, uh, three and a half inches of the shank is this, is like a spiral rope. And I've actually put seven spirals on there instead of the original four that were there because odd numbers in masonry are very significant one, three, five, seven, nine, especially.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:57:18):
And so I've incorporated those numbers in the handle, uh, very specifically, so that it's, it has more masonic meaning it. It forms, instead of the, the priest, uh, wearing a collar of beads and each bead is a reminder of a certain, uh, doctrine that he must memorize. So to this gavel has its numbers. And as you touch each parts of the hand gavel you're reminded of, for example, the end of the gavel is a perfect sphere. And as you rub the end of the gavel, uh, you, you are reminded of the universality of freemasonry.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:57:58):
So now I'm making 25 of them, one for each of the past masters, so that when we celebrate our 25th anniversary of the research lodge, which is the only research lodge in Ontario, the masonic research lodge in the year of 2002, uh, those past masters that are still with us will receive a token gap I've created before.

Ed Brubaker (01:58:29):
So that Jack, if we go back there, all the training that your father gave you down in Windsor, in woodworking and so on, has been very useful to you over the years, uh, in working at, as a student at the college, helping in the labs in, uh, college Royal activities, uh, in the air force, uh, working on planes. Uh, and now in your, uh, life hobby, I guess we'd call it, basically. So that has been a very useful skill that you've had. And you still use it, I know you've built the cupboards in home and other things too, that you enjoy the spine, uh, carpentry work. We're just about out of space here. Is there anything else that you want to add quickly over the next several minutes?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (01:59:21):
Well, one thing you recall, we, uh, we cut down the maple tree in your backyard and, uh, I love wood and I hate to see, uh, us not take advantage of wood when we can. When you offered me the trunk of that maple tree, and I had it re-sawn into lumber, uh, one of, two of the first things that I made created for my daughter-in-law, uh, was a solid maple kitchen table for her kitchen and a changed cabinet for their first, uh, child that was born to them. So the maple tree, uh, lives on in my daughter-in-law's home as a table and a changed cabinet.

Ed Brubaker (02:00:10):
Good, good. You have also made, uh, plaques for the Canadian society of agricultural engineering about Walnut, I think, and uh...

Jacob (Jack) Pos (02:00:21):
Well, the one was, uh, for the first, uh, international meeting with the CSAE and the ASAE, that's the Canadian society of agricultural engineering and the American society of agricultural engineering. I was commissioned, uh, to make, uh, an artifact and I decided on the maple belief as our hidden symbol. Uh, this was made of, uh, laminated wood. So I use all Canadian hardwoods, uh, to laminate and then hand carved maple leaf and put it on a, uh, multiple base, carved base. And that was donated to the American Society of Agricultural Engineers, which sits in there some showcase in, uh, St Joseph's Michigan.

Ed Brubaker (02:01:07):
About how big would this maple leaf be?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (02:01:10):
Uh, the maple leaf itself would be about, uh, eight inches wide and perhaps 10 inches long. And then the base below that, uh, three inch stem on that would be about nine inches diameter.

Ed Brubaker (02:01:26):
And they were very proud of that. I've seen it in their, in their showcase.

Jacob (Jack) Pos (02:01:30):
I also had to make, uh, a similar, uh, uh, trophy for the agricultural engineering society in England. And they too have, uh, not exactly the same as that, but somewhat similar and it's on their mantel in their office building.

Ed Brubaker (02:01:53):
So Jack, you've had a good life and a good career in agricultural engineering. And how many years have you been married now to Daisy?

Jacob (Jack) Pos (02:02:02):
We were married in 1941. So we have about three more years to our 60th wedding anniversary.

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